Lionel Messi

[sharkyvilla]

Thought Leo deserved a bump after his second hat-trick in 3 games. Anyone see his run from his own penalty box until he got scythed down at the edge of the area? Would have been a cracking goal that.

[Zatman]

A great player and goal machine but have said once and will say it again. He looks average without Xavi and Iniesta while they still look great for Spain without MEssi

[ED]

Xavi was amazing tthe weekend, he is an absolute genius, just not as eye catching as Lionel

[AVFC-Prideofbrum]

A great player and goal machine but have said once and will say it again. He looks average without Xavi and Iniesta while they still look great for Spain without MEssi

Hard to take such a comment seriously.

Firstly, he does not look 'average' unless you believe 'average' is absolutely fantastic. I watch Argentina pretty much every single international and while as a team they do not succeed as much, Messi is the heart of everything. He doesn't score as much but he creates a large proportion of the opportunities. Everything goes through him.

He also plays in a completely different team, in a different set up. Xavi, Iniesta, are both unbelievable players (By the way, Iniesta isn't even playing because injuries and Messi is still creating and scoring goals for fun ...)none of which also had anything to do with Xavi or many/if any of his goals.

but back to where I was going, Xavi and Iniesta play in a similar set up. Not identical of course but Spain team philosophy is all about possession, they have players who fit right in, Pique, Puyol, Busquets, Alonso, Villa etc...all these players, it's easier for Xavi to go from Barcelona where he is given the ball 100 times in the centre of the pitch, control the match. To a team where he is given the ball 100 times in the centre of the pitch an control of the match.

Where as Messi plays for a team who are very good but still don't keep the ball like a Barca, who don't find Messi as often as he can be found for Barca. That doesn't make him a worse player.

if you put changed Xavi and Messi around, you'd get similar. Spain winning everything and Argentina and Xavi struggling because he'd regularly have a lot less of the ball as he's used too. Which is why Xavi is regularly fantastic, because he plays in teams that he gets so much of the ball. Would Xavi be as good in a team where he only gets the ball 40/50 times a game regularly? No of course not.

Just also look at Ronaldo's record at International level, he's done at United/Man United. No one would even dare to question Ronaldo's ability in terms of needing certain players but he struggles to be as good for his country.

He has 12 goals, 10 assists in 9 games. Of course, all down to Xavi setting Messi up for all his goals and assists... :? Iniesta and Xavi have scored 3 between them this season, 2 of them set up by Messi through balls!

I've never heard such absolute tosh as what you've said, even more so by the fact that Xavi, Villa, Guardiola, all these people who play alongside and work with Messi describe him as by far the best player.

Barca would struggle more without Messi than they would Xavi/Iniesta (definitely Iniesta, Xavi would be a bigger loss than Iniesta) he wins them games. 31 goals Barca have scored this season. Messi has been directly scored/set up 22 of them.....

Xavi:

A player like him only comes around once every 50 years. The only reason the rest of us have any chance of winning this year is because the World Cup didn’t turn out too well for Argentina, because if it had, then it (the FIFA Ballon d’Or) would be no contest. In my view, Leo is now even better than [Diego] Maradona was. He’s going to be at the very top for many years to come, there’s nobody like him.

Pep:

"We wouldn't be what we are without Messi," he said after watching his side break Real's long-standing record, which was set in 1961. "Without him we would be a good team, but he makes the difference. All of the great teams in history have a player who is different and Messi is one of those - he makes the difference."

"Lionel is the best player I've ever seen, probably the best ever. He made the difference.

"Messi is unique, a one-off.

Villa:

"Messi does incredible things," Villa said at a press conference. "His stats make you cover your eyes. He cannot be compared to anyone. We are delighted."

and I'm sorry, Xavi especially, may be absolutely out of this world as a midfielder but when it comes down to it, moments win matches, goals and making goals win matches. He has 65 goals and 35 assists in his last 64 matches. What Messi does is more difficult than what Xavi does and the fact he's unbelievably good at that, both in scoring goals at stupid rates, at important times in crucial matches as well as creating goals makes him the top of the tree. Barca beat Real Madrid 5-4 on aggregate earlier in season, Messi 3 goals, 2 assists. That's the difference. Xavi may be brilliant but what wins things is that ability to produce what you need to win games and trophies, goals. No one could do what Messi does for Barca.

If Messi looks average without that duo, then you have either do not seriously watch those games or simply there is absolutely zero hope for any other player in the world. He is the best for Barca, the best for Argentina and just because his country aren't as successful at a national stage doesn't somehow equate him to him being average.

He is the best player in the world, indisputably.

(impossible to argue about best ever, I think it's an impossible arguement all together whoever the players)

[lapal_fan]

Great post POB. Really well put.

Some people just don't like the institution that is Barcelona FC.

I think we should count ourselves lucky that we have 1/2 other players which stop people from saying outright that Messi is the best. But people like Ronaldo/Messi/Xavi are rewriting records that have stood for 50+ years. The years in which players from that era say that football is harder to play now.

[AVFC-Prideofbrum]

Thought Leo deserved a bump after his second hat-trick in 3 games. Anyone see his run from his own penalty box until he got scythed down at the edge of the area? Would have been a cracking goal that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIAqKhg1rF0&feature=related

What a shame the guy took him down. Would have been awesome.

[The_Rev]

Is football harder to play now? Tactics and fitness have definitely moved on in the past 15 years or so, things like ProZone have changed the game hugely, and I guess you could argue that a mediocre team now could cancel out a good team from the 70s or 80s.

The flip side of that is that we live in an era where the gap between the best and the rest is absolutely massive. It is little surprise to think that teams like Barcelona are up there with the best of all time simply because they can afford to hoover up all the talent. Not only do they have the best players in the world in their team because of the transfer fees and wages they can afford to pay, they can also take the best players away from rival sides to go and sit on their bench. The distribution of talent is more concentrated on a handful of sides now than it ever was. Does this mean that one of the reasons Messi performs so incredibly well at club level is because he is playing for a side where the quality of opposition is comparatively lower than it has been in previous eras? I think it is certainly a factor. I'll take nothing away from Messi as he is clearly one of the greatest players of all time, but he does have more things in place to help him perform for his club than any other player in history has probably had.

[kurtsimonw]

Just also look at Ronaldo's record at International level, he's done at United/Man United. No one would even dare to question Ronaldo's ability in terms of needing certain players but he struggles to be as good for his country.

Portugal really aren't that good though are they? Even in the Figo/Rui Costa years they struggled to qualify for tournements. Portugal have gone through their best period in their history in the last 7 or 8 years - unsurprisingly when Ronaldo has been in the side.

Argentina are a top team and yet can't even win their regional tournement where their main competition don't even take it seriously. Messi should've won something with them by now.

He is the best player in the world, indisputably.

If you don't count Ronaldo and don't want to argue Xavi/Iniesta's case, then yes. I agree.

I find it quite amusing that you say Xavi/Iniesta wouldn't be as good in a team that doesn't get posession and that they're only good because of it. Yet use that as a defense for Messi, saying the only reason he doesn't do amazing for the Argies is because they don't get the ball all the time.

Bizzare really. Just because you think he can do no wrong doesn't mean someone with a different opinion 'cant be taken seriously'.

[arkvillan]

if you think any other player, other than Messi, is the best in the world, you need to take up a new sport.

[kurtsimonw]

Cool story bro.

[AVFC-Prideofbrum]

Just also look at Ronaldo's record at International level, he's done at United/Man United. No one would even dare to question Ronaldo's ability in terms of needing certain players but he struggles to be as good for his country.

Portugal really aren't that good though are they? Even in the Figo/Rui Costa years they struggled to qualify for tournements. Portugal have gone through their best period in their history in the last 7 or 8 years - unsurprisingly when Ronaldo has been in the side.

Argentina are a top team and yet can't even win their regional tournement where their main competition don't even take it seriously. Messi should've won something with them by now.

He is the best player in the world, indisputably.

If you don't count Ronaldo and don't want to argue Xavi/Iniesta's case, then yes. I agree.

I find it quite amusing that you say Xavi/Iniesta wouldn't be as good in a team that doesn't get posession and that they're only good because of it. Yet use that as a defense for Messi, saying the only reason he doesn't do amazing for the Argies is because they don't get the ball all the time.

Bizzare really. Just because you think he can do no wrong doesn't mean someone with a different opinion 'cant be taken seriously'.

Argentina on paper have a good side, unfortunately different coaches, it's never really worked. That is not Messi's fault, let's just say for instance, Messi is a 10/10 player at Barcelona. Let's say as an example, he is a 8/10 player with Argentina. Then even without a full Lionel Messi at his very best, if they were good enough, they'd be winning titles such as Copa America and doing better than what they currently are. As said, they aren't a one man team, Aguero, Higuain, Mascherano, Di Maria (have a poor defence though, part of the problem) shows to me that it's clearly an Argentina problem tactically or getting players to play together well rather than 'well Messi should have won them something by now' because even Messi at 60%, they should still be winning competitions with the squad.

I also said not 'serious' because he says 'average' ...average? in what way is he average? He's gone from the best in the world to a middle of the road player? if you're talking average in Messi's case, he is still Argentina's best player, regularly proven in every display with the national team. If people bother to watch the games.

Now for the next part ..

I did not say Xavi and Iniesta are only good because they get a lot of the ball. I said, that the reason they are so good on both stages is because they play so similar for both teams and do indeed get so much of the ball.

Is Messi as good/effective when he has to pick the ball up in deeper positions, don't have players who can feed him passes which plays him into dangerous areas, where he can create and score goals in the final third. No he isn't.

Would Iniesta or Xavi be as good and effective if their team wasn't able to build completely from the back, keep possession and have players in front and behind who's off ball movement allows them to always have free options where they can use the ball. I certainly don't think so.

My point being that the only way they are all comparable is within this current Barcelona team where they all play to their finest capabilities in a team that gets the absolute best out of them. Messi is top of the pile, he is the best player for the best team. He is what wins them the trophies and the matches at the end of the day. As stated by team-mates and his own manager.

Xavi dictates the play and the tempo, so regularly makes the right pass at key times which makes him such the great player. He is top 3 player in the world.

Iniesta, I don't consider him to be as vital as Messi or Xavi (still vital but not as key). Still world class.

Ronaldo you can argue but I think Messi is the better player as I think he can do more than Ronaldo within a team, you put Ronaldo in the team because he will score so many goals and is a constant threat. You can put Messi in the team and let him create, score goals. Drop deep, get involved within different areas of the pitch.

Ronaldo goalscoring is the main reason he is so good, It's also Messi's but Messi then adds that extra on top, the creative side that just I think sets him aside, as well as seeming to always be the difference when it comes to the big games.

His team mates, manager, former team mates, opposition players, opposition managers, former players all regard him as the best yet some people really struggle to accept it for whatever reason, possibly to be different. I'm not sure. Heck, even after winning the Ballon D'or in 2006, Ronaldinho remarked that he wasn't even the best at Barcelona ...that a certain 19 year old Messi was, which shows how good he is, that was even before he became goal crazy, creating, making better decisions, stronger etc..

By the way, it's hardly surprising to see Portugal qualifying for tournaments with Bruno Alves, Pepe, Contraeo, Carvalho, Boswinga, Moutinho, Miereles, Ronaldo, Nani,to choose from! (probably missed a lot of good players also) while they shouldn't be winning anything, he certainly isn't a player just carrying a very average bunch of players.

Summed up.

Messi is best player at Barcelona and is the most effective, influential, match winning, talented player within the squad and is a better player for those reasons than any of his team mates. (Xavi comes within touching distance, Iniesta doesn't, hugely talented player but behind Xavi, Messi and Ronaldo without too much thinking IMO)

Messi is a better player than Ronaldo for reasons already stated in writing.

(in my opinion)

Oh and when I judge these players, I rarely look at international records. I don't watch these players on regular basis at international level (I watch Messi, about it), not to mention the training with certain players for a few days then playing 1/2 games and then back with the club for 3 months. Usually different systems, different managers can be asking different things. Travelling to other parts of the world, playing against all sorts of different opposition, when it comes to big tournaments, it's reguarly one off games.

Almost all the time, I look at Xavi, Iniesta, Messi, Ronaldo etc...I watch them at their club and base opinions around that, in their most comfortable environment in the way they play best on a regular basis. Like Alves, for me, the best RB in the world, doesn't get in for Brazil. Rooney, hardly lit up the international stage, still one of the best players. Fabregas, Silva ..neither play for their country every single game. Both high up on my list of some of the best players in the world.

It is no particular reason but I just never find basing decisions on internationals and the only time it ever seems to come up is when talking about Messi. As it's the only very weak stick to beat him with because he's simply faultless at club level.

[kurtsimonw]

Alot of it is subjective and no point in arguing as we'd be going round in circles. Like I hardly think Messi was outstanding at the WC/Copa, you think differently.

I do want to pick up on the Xavi/Iniesta thing though. Your arguement against them is basically they wouldn't be so effective in a team that doesn't keep the ball as much. But they are the reason the team keeps the ball as much as they do. That's like saying Messi wouldn't be as prolific if he didn't score as much, you can't really use what they bring to the team as a player again them in an arguement like that.

I'm not saying Messi isn't great, but he's usually great with greatness around him. The midfields Ronaldo has had haven't been all that great and alot of the players have been selfish. The likes of Fletcher, Carrick, Anderson, Khedira really are nowhere near the level that Barca have. Nani, Di Maria and Benzema can be just as selfish as Ronaldo.

I think the International talk with Messi only comes about because that's the only other way to really judge him. He's only ever played, at club level, for probably the best side ever so the only way you can judge him otherwise is for Argentina. Whilst Ronaldo has hit 30+ league goals in what are considered the top 2 leagues in football. I think people just want to see Messi do it elsewhere, to see if he can be truly great outside of his comfort zone.

Anyway, it's good to see you reply to me without using the words 'target' and 'man'.

[AVFC-Prideofbrum]

Alot of it is subjective and no point in arguing as we'd be going round in circles. Like I hardly think Messi was outstanding at the WC/Copa, you think differently.

Not outstanding but not average either, He didn't play at his absolute best (close but usually would have scored 1/2 chances presented his way) but was still Argentina's most dangerous and best player within both tournaments. Which is also a reason why I don't think Argentina is somehow some way of putting Messi down, he still is there best player, they still have some great players in attacking areas, yet they aren't successful even like Copa America against much weaker sides. It's deeper than Messi between winning and losing because take Messi out through injury, they should still be winning the competition. (Copa America, not world cup) It's a team issue. Messi isn't failing, Argentina is failing. One man isn't going to turn a failing team especially defensively into a winning one. They at least not to provide the base for success to be won.

I do want to pick up on the Xavi/Iniesta thing though. Your arguement against them is basically they wouldn't be so effective in a team that doesn't keep the ball as much. But they are the reason the team keeps the ball as much as they do. That's like saying Messi wouldn't be as prolific if he didn't score as much, you can't really use what they bring to the team as a player again them in an arguement like that.

They are not the reason the teams keep the ball so much. Iniesta hasn't played in either last two Barca home matches, we've seen 13 goals scored, 0 conceded, 2 wins. Stunning football. First game against Vilarrael, no Xavi, 5-0 win, comfortable. You need top class players to play that system but take Xavi, Iniesta out of that system and you aren't destroying that system but just simply Xavi and Iniesta are the finest players within those roles. Just like take Messi out of Barcelona's system, they aren't going to break down but simply they aren't going to be as good because Messi is the best player in that position (like Xavi/Iniesta in theres) We also need to remember to seperate players, I'm not arguing Messi vs Xavi/Iniesta, we're arguing Messi, Xavi or Iniesta. If you swapped Messi over for Xavi or Messi over for Iniesta, would we really see much difference in terms of World Champions now? I don't think so.

I'd also like to point out Messi plays in a position where the most difficult part of the game happens and team mates are generally more needed, it is much easier for players like Xavi and Iniesta to pick the ball up deeper than it is for players like Messi to pick the ball up in areas where he can damage teams. So of course players like Messi are going to miss the way Barca can create space all over the pitch thanks to flying wing backs, forward wingers pushing so high, midfielders moving to create space. He is afforded more space.

Argentina, they don't get their full backs pushed forward or keep the ball as well (Banega/Mascherano hardly players who are world class at keeping possession in midfield) which means when Messi picks the ball up for Argentina, there is generally a lot more pressure on him because they haven't got as much to worry about as a threat. He also plays in a different role, behind the striker. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXTtdGjcn94 this was the last friendly, as you can see, nothing wrong with his performance, creating goals and chances.

It is like Ronaldo also, he is so good scoring goals for Real Madrid, surely he should be scoring goals galore international level as well? It just doesn't work like that though, Portugal aren't Real Madrid and Argentina aren't Barcelona. There is not much between either national side IMO, Argentina better going forward. Portugal better at the back, shown in a recent friendly.

Messi's role is highlighted by the fact he has 10 assists in his last 9 internationals. He naturally doesn't score as many because he plays in a deeper position which unless you dominate the ball and zones like Barca do, you're never going to be scoring goal a game ratios at International level. Again another video definitely worth watching to show the role: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_Zo2HXmtjw he is used so much more as the creator in the Argentina team compared to Barcelona where for Barca he takes up positions both dropping deep but regularly then goes in behind and into the box. On all these clips, he's the one having to go past players so regularly just to create chances. Again Barcelona, it's actually quite rare you see Messi make more than 4/5 dribbles per match in terms of the amount you see in that clip. He has to change his game and become a different player. Watching those clips, you could hardly say 'he isn't delivering' yet Argentina lost that night to Uruguay.

It is not Messi's fault that for Barcelona other players take up the space he can and can create the chances he can. Like for example the goals vs Osasauna are positions he could just not take up for Argentina because the way they play. That's not his fault. He is playing to the maximum of his ability in the position he's given. There is the key for me. He plays deeper for Argentina, is given far more responsibility to basically create the attacks from middle third onwards, Barcelona, he only has to worry about the final third, everything else is covered. That doesn't make him a less a player if you understand what I mean? Just like Ronaldo who I guess plays out wide still generally (wide forward) for Portugal isn't going to score as many for Portugal because he has more defensive needs for Portugal, less top class support, less of the ball, less creativity within the side. That's not his fault, can never mark him down for something that's out of his control.

He is given a role for Barcelona, he is their best player.

He is given a role (different) for Argentina, he is their best player. Just because it is a different role and so different in the way the teams play does not mean he is successful with one but failing with another.

I'm not saying Messi isn't great, but he's usually great with greatness around him. The midfields Ronaldo has had haven't been all that great and alot of the players have been selfish. The likes of Fletcher, Carrick, Anderson, Khedira really are nowhere near the level that Barca have. Nani, Di Maria and Benzema can be just as selfish as Ronaldo.

Ronaldo scored 68 goals in his last 102 appearances at United. support of Scholes, Giggs, Carrick, Tevez, Rooney, Nani, Berbatov in those times isn't bad and his goalscoring record is a very good one and about right for his ability, standard of team mates and quality opposition.

While for Real Madrid, he has Ozil, Alonso, Benzema, Higuain, Di Maria, Kaka etc...they aren't bad players. He also doesn't set as many up, I think it's fair to say Ronaldo's game (amazing game and fantastic record) is more goal orientated than Messi's who can create more often as well but definitely also scores as many because he does have better service, not directly from Xavi/Iniesta but in the way Barcelona can dominate games. (He'd score stupid amount of goals but don't think he'd match 53 at Real Madrid but that wouldn't in my mind make him a worse player because I think he'd create a lot more goals than Ronaldo has which is added to his game and what in my mind, seperates them)

I think the International talk with Messi only comes about because that's the only other way to really judge him. He's only ever played, at club level, for probably the best side ever so the only way you can judge him otherwise is for Argentina. Whilst Ronaldo has hit 30+ league goals in what are considered the top 2 leagues in football.

Ronaldo like Messi hasn't had a goal littered career in International football while downgrading Messi because he hasn't played for any other club seems harsh. He doesn't need to prove anything. (Not saying you are but just generally)

I think I've said somewhere before, I'm happy enough for the Ronaldo/Messi debate. Not a fan of the Iniesta/Xavi debate mainly because I think it's blindingly obvious Messi is the best player in that team, the match winner of the team. Whatever else happens, he is the guy that wins the trophies for that club. The player that seperates them from brilliant to arguably best ever.

Not just my opinion but also the opinion of their own manager and players. Players we're directly comparing. Xavi etc...

I'll leave you with one final quote though from CR7 earlier this month.

"He [Messi] is now the best,"

[AVFC-Prideofbrum]

Nice to have a proper debate anyway about football. Which has somehow kept me way too long.

[VillaEire]

I read yesterday that he only needs 44 more goals to become Barca's all time highest goalscorer. Odds on him getting there this season?

[GarethRDR]

Hypothetical: Say one morning Sheikh Mansour wakes up and decides he will buy Messi, no matter how much it costs. He'll just keep throwing more and more money at it until he gets what he wants. What do you think the magic number would be for Barcelona? What salary would bring Messi to Manchester?

[Genie]

£250m / £1m a week I reckon. (I believe Spain has a law that every player has a buy out clause, he must have one in that case)

[wiggyrichard]

Contracted till 2016 with a 250m Euro buy-out-clause, earning believed to be in the region of 250k Euro per week.

Say City offered Barca between £100-150m, would they sell? I personally think they would think about it.

Saying that, i dont think we will ever see Messi playing in the Premier League, as much as i would love it.

[Zatman]

Well Barcelona are in massive debts so might sell if City cam with a 100-150 million bid.

Would take a brave president to sanction it

[Shillzz]

If City met the buy out clause of 250m Euros and doubled his wages, then I think it would give all parties some food for thought, but I think it would have to be preceeded with a few other star players retiring/leaving first.

He may not say so at the moment, but Messi has achieved everything there is to achieve in Spain and he may see seek pastures new in a few years time.