Bollitics: VT General Election Poll #5 - Leaders Debate Two

[bickster]

The more people like the Mail go for him, the more inclined I am to vote for the Yellow party, rather than spoil the ballot, or vote for some independent character.

This, most definitely

[blandy]

And then there's this shite

The Liberal leader's words couldn't be more insulting to the memory of those who lost their lives in the Second World War or insensitive to their relatives.

It's perhaps unfair to point out that Mr Clegg's father is half-Russian, his mother is Dutch, and he's married to a Spaniard. Damning insight into the Liberal leader | Mail Online Unbelievable. People pay to read this? Do they believe it, do they fall for the contempt that the Mail and Sun and Mirror and Express show for their readers, for democracy? Never mind the issues, let's just make up some shit and fling it, then add in some barely concealed hypocritical racism of our own and jobs a good 'un.

Wish I hadn't looked at their ruddy internet, now

[Chindie]

The fact that since last week the Heil have basically been attacking Clegg as 'un-British' says it all about it as a paper, **** vile rag.

As for the vote, I'm now not voting, sadly.

[markavfc40]

The Mail is a disgusting, vile rag and surprise surprise they'll do anything to influence the fuckwits that read it to vote for the vile party they are endorsing.

[leviramsey]

Interestingly the Times political correspondent, Roland Watson, is a fellow old etonian and Villa fan. Add Prince William and the place is swarming with them.

We are a right posh club that seems to attract the right sort of fans, I must say.

[tonyh29]

see I can agree the mail is a vile paper stirring hatred but the implication is that all mail readers are Tory and fuckwits etc... Why does that have to be the case all I ever see is tories being banded as rich uncaring rocket polishers etc

so I challenge anyone on vt .. I'm a Tory post it outright if you think that makes me a rocket polisher etc ... You don't know me or how I live me life or what moral code I live under ..im fairly confident it's the same values you live under , maybe even higher ....Sure politics is emotive but FFS **** off with the pathetic sterotype shit ... If you can't string together a decent debate or arguement then don't bother

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

Smear campaigns are the sign of desperate politicians, and the tories are very much this.

Anyone pick up on the story of Murdochs son running in on the editor of the Independent when they wrote a headline about Murdoch doesn't decide elections people do?

**** hell that man needs locked away, the world would be a better place without him.

[markavfc40]

Smear campaigns are the sign of desperate politicians, and the tories are very much this.

I'd really like to think anyone with at least half a brain would see through this but sadly it seems not.

[VillaAndLoyal]

see I can agree the mail is a vile paper stirring hatred but the implication is that all mail readers are Tory and fuckwits etc... Why does that have to be the case all I ever see is tories being banded as rich uncaring rocket polishers etc

so I challenge anyone on vt .. I'm a Tory post it outright if you think that makes me a rocket polisher etc ... You don't know me or how I live me life or what moral code I live under ..im fairly confident it's the same values you live under , maybe even higher ....Sure politics is emotive but FFS **** off with the pathetic sterotype shit ... If you can't string together a decent debate or arguement then don't bother

Well said Tony.

The loony left is very much alive and kicking on VT as it always has been. The great irony being that many people on here seem to be collectively slating the 'right propaganda machine' when this very site is a prime example of the left-side spinning ideas, jumping on bandwagons and exaggerating stereotypes to the point of desperation. Thank god this doesn't reflect the electorate or this country would be in even more turmoil than it already is after 13 years of New Labour rule.

I find it very interesting that the VAST majority of Lib/Lab supporters who comment about the Tories on here seem to just attack the Thatcher era without really looking at the present party which has done a lot in recent times to shed that stereotype.

I find Cameron to be a very down to earth, likeable guy, who quite clearly wants what is best for this country- distilling into the country the same values that he has grown up with. Those that attack his background and try to claim that he is out of touch are just trying to drive a class divide between him and the working classes where none exists. He makes use of public schools, the NHS, he cycles to work when he can, Christ he even supposedly supports the Villa - that is hardly the 'stereotype' of some big-wig out of touch Tory toff, is it?

His manifesto and the tougher choices it lays out are purely down to un-elected Gordon Brown and his 13 years of mis-management. I find it outrageous that Cameron gets attacked and dismissed so readily when he's not even been given a chance to run the country, and yet you have a gormless parasite in Gordon Brown who has played a vital role in doubling our national debt to levels which are unprecedented in this country - and yet he never gets a mention? We are only better off than Greece financially, and they have just had to call in the IMF - that says it all really. Yet I read people on here slating Cameron and saying Brown was impressive in the leader’s debate? I would disagree with that sentiment anyway, but so what? We're in the throes of a vital election campaign, of course he is going to make pledges that sound good in theory, but does his track record lead anyone to suggest he will carry out those promises? Like heck he will. Three words: the Lisbon treaty. That's just one of the many lies Labour has told the public.

Without wanting to regurgitate Tory rhetoric, it is actually true that if you vote for Clegg, you will end up with Brown. You will end up with a hung parliament made up of parties who have a big difference in opinion on some very key issues. We need leadership and stability at this moment in time, not political parties arguing over ideas in a hung parliament which are notoriously bad for the economy and have rarely ever worked in this country. And ironically, we could end up with a follow-up election just months after, costing our economy more money in the meantime. As if we needed any more debt.

What we need is proper change and a break from Gordon Brown and his fraudulent Labour 'team'. If Cameron does worse than I expect him to do, then he will be straight out after five years and that could well be the last Tory government we see for a while under this ever-changing political landscape. Then the Liberals really could make a play for total control.

As Cameron says, he doesn't want to make several of the tough decisions outlined in the Tory manifesto, but they have had to base their policies on the state of our country at this present time, which is less than great to put it mildly. Labour has created so much bureaucracy, more quangos than I could ever begin to start counting and these are the 'waste cuts' the Tories talk about. Yes, some jobs might be lost in the short term, but if it means that it will bring the deficit created by Labour down quicker than the other parties have said, then that is in the long-term a better solution for this country. Labour has made sure, thanks to their running of this country, that tough choices and times lay ahead. Whatever Governement is elected. There is no point in denying that by pumping more money into the economy this year to try and keep increasing growth when the national debt keeps rising and rising and the interest rates go up and up. Labour will just hammer all of us in 2011 with the NI tax or "jobs" tax as it should really be called. This is a proposal that hundreds of the UK's leading companies have warned against, how is there any more evidence needed that Labour's economic strategy is as flawed as they come? Do we really want Labour to take us BACK into recession?

I honestly cannot see why some people are so against Tory policy. They have vowed to get tough on people who treat this country as one big "handout". Unless you are one of those vile, work-shy cretins then why would anyone be against that? They want a variable cap on immigration to drive down the crazy numbers that have been coming in under Labour. Clegg on the other hand wants to stick a big post-it-note on Britain saying "Please don't be afraid to illegally come here because we will then give you the same privileges that everyone else gets" due to his farcical proposal to hold an amnesty for illegal’s. That would quite frankly leave our already shambolic welfare system in utter meltdown.

Tories have pledged to increase NHS spending year on year, keep the trident system which is a crucial international deterrent to countries such as Iran who, in this increasingly volatile world, could frankly decide to do anything in future years. Clegg still hasn't told us what alternative to trident he would employ? Funny that.

Yes, Tories would make efficiency savings in education and the public sector, but that doesn't necessarily mean a decline in services, does it? They want more police on the streets and less meaningless paperwork and extravagant purchases like the police Lexus Cameron talked about last week.

In essence, whilst cuts and certain taxes may have to go up short-term at least, it is evidently clear to me that the majority of Conservative policies are just common sense proposals with the good of the country at its heart. It is common sense to want more police on the street, want a halt on mass immigration, to want our forces to be better equipped, to want everyone in society to chip in if they can do so, to better our NHS service, to cut out all the bureaucracy which wastes so much money, to take a firm hold of this deficit before it really does spiral out of control etc etc. It's all common sense.

People seem to think that if the Conservatives win, Cameron will rip his face off and Thatcher will be stood their ready to have a second crack of the whip. All the current Tories really want is a change from this current 'nanny state' regime where sleaze is top of the agenda, where we have created a society in which people think it is okay to sponge off others, okay to commit a crime in the knowledge that you will get off scot free and okay to "buy now, pay later". If we carry on with Labour then I may as well leave the country now, and if you vote for Clegg in protest then you will end up with the ULTIMATE irony of changing precisely **** all in this country for the next five years.

At the end of the day, like I said, 'if' the Tories got in and didn't deliver then you would find them slung out of Number 10 quicker than you could say "BOOM OR BUST" at the next available opportunity. But I firmly believe that wouldn't be the case and that after 13 years of Labour decline they deserve one more chance to prove that a party CAN change, whilst retaining the core values that distinguish the Conservatives from any other. I really think they are the only viable option for this country going by its other two rivals. I actually think Clegg is a decent bloke and I can readily see why he has seen a surge in the polls. He reminds me of a certain fresh-faced Mr Blair and he appeals to people. But to be blunt, in terms of policy, some of their manifesto is bordering on crazy and they would do more harm to this country than good working alongside the Red crooks from Labour in a hung-parliament.

Before people start trying to attack my viewpoint - go ahead, I've listened to this constant Labour/Liberal bullshit for FAR too long on here to let it affect me in the slightest. That is my viewpoint. This is a public forum. The end.

[PauloBarnesi]

Just thought I would add my two pence with todays interesting fact:

Britain has had one PM who didn’t speak English as a first language:

Yep the Mancunian born War winning Welshman, David Lloyd George. He was also the last Liberal PM

[drat01]

Before people start trying to attack my viewpoint - go ahead, I've listened to this constant Labour/Liberal bullshit for FAR too long on here to let it affect me in the slightest. That is my viewpoint. This is a public forum. The end.

and that sums it up perfectly. A perfect Tory response I may say. The stereo Type is there for all to see

At least Tony will debate - sometimes with a rabid right wing hat. :wink: (The loony left > rabid right)

If we carry on with Labour then I may as well leave the country now, and if you vote for Clegg in protest then you will end up with the ULTIMATE irony of changing precisely **** all in this country for the next five years.

Well **** off and go then, with that sort of attitude you can drink with the Phil Collins's of this world and wont be missed

down to un-elected Gordon Brown

Did you have a different voting paper to the rest of the UK, one with PM on it? No - get real we do not vote for a PM - are you and the Tory party will announce today it seems, saying then we should have a president?

Christ he even supposedly supports the Villa - that is hardly the 'stereotype' of some big-wig out of touch Tory toff, is it?

Incredible - to claim that because he says he is a Villa fan suddenly makes him OK. If you want to go down that route see how he supposedly got this Villa allegiance - and if you were around at the time his family member ran this club you will also remember the contempt that he showed the fans at the time. If Cameron is a "man of the people" "down to earth" then you live in a different society to most of the people.

Your post cut have been cut and pasted from the Tory manifesto (price 5 pounds - profits to Belize printing). Cameron is not the man to take this country forward, you are seeing throughout this campaign where his priorities and those of his backers are.

p.s.

They want more police on the streets and less meaningless paperwork and extravagant purchases like the police Lexus Cameron talked about last week.

- you do realise it was proven that Cameron lied about this?

[mykeyb]

Before people start trying to attack my viewpoint - go ahead, I've listened to this constant Labour/Liberal bullshit for FAR too long on here to let it affect me in the slightest. That is my viewpoint. This is a public forum. The end.

and that sums it up perfectly. A perfect Tory response I may say. The stereo Type is there for all to see

At least Tony will debate - sometimes with a rabid right wing hat. :wink: (The loony left > rabid right)

The trouble with forums is its hard to tell if posts are meant to be ironic or just come out that way

[drat01]

Good one Mike - on the ball as ever - good to see some of us are up early and awake

[LondonLax]

Blandy,

My surprise is that a man with such a low opinion of his own countrymen would seek to lead them. It's not about 'falling' for anything from one paper or another, Cleggs views are readily apparent.

Someone has taken

Clegg in Nazi Slur on Britain"

to mean "

...the British were worse than the Nazi's??

When he said no such thing. He didn't even make a "Nazi slur" of any sort. He said people indulging in anti German behaviour, against Germans in the UK, hounding them out of their jobs, making their lives a misery was wrong, and insidious, and it is.

Low opinion of the eejits who did what he described in his article - too right. What do you think of the people he described?

Maybe it's just "knockabout" political discussion from yourself, fine..... When National Newspapers go in for this sort of thing it's pathetic, dishonest and all the rest.....and leads to people taking up the cudgels, using the Mail's distorted views as their weapon.

It seems to me that either you've fallen for it, or you haven't but are using their spite anyway. I hope I'm wrong on that.

The more people like the Mail go for him, the more inclined I am to vote for the Yellow party, rather than spoil the ballot, or vote for some independent character.

Well summed up.

I am surprised at you Awol, falling for the spin.

Clegg doesn't have a loathing for the electorate. He was just calling out racist idiots on being racist idiots. It is “more insidious” (not ‘worse’) because it is easy to laugh along at racist jokes without realising the damage they can cause.

The Mail have dredged back 6 years to find something to spin about him as well, it is pretty pathetic.

[blandy]

see I can agree the mail is a vile paper stirring hatred but the implication is that all mail readers are Tory and fuckwits etc... Why does that have to be the case all I ever see is tories being banded as rich uncaring rocket polishers etc

so I challenge anyone on vt .. I'm a Tory post it outright if you think that makes me a rocket polisher etc ... You don't know me or how I live me life or what moral code I live under ..im fairly confident it's the same values you live under , maybe even higher ....Sure politics is emotive but FFS **** off with the pathetic sterotype shit ... If you can't string together a decent debate or argument then don't bother

I would guess a lot/almost all of Mail readers are Tory/UKIP. I just can't imagine that someone who doesn't share a lot of the editorial values of that paper could tolerate reading the bile against anyone who doesn't hold the Mail's values for very long.

The implication that all it's readers are equally vile (not made on here, as far as I can see) would be completely incorrect. As is the stupid remark about "Loony Left", just above.

It seems to me that the media in the Country is largely pro Tory, as it suits their business model - Express, Mail, Telegraph, Sun definitely very anti anything not Tory. Mirror the same in reverse. Guardian is pro Labour and the Times and Indie, from different perspectives are undeclared, for want of a better word. Sky is more right wing, ITV and the BBC and Ch 4 have to play by the rules of neutrality and do so, during elections. Outside elections I think the BBC is often left leaning in a Guardian way, but not exclusively so.

About the uncaring thing - I believe that there is a section of the Tory party and Tory vote (but by no means all of it) that is uncaring towards anything or anyone that would get in the way of them making money. Things like opposing the minimum wage, or better rights for ordinary workers lead me to this view. I'm very wary of the combination of religion and politics, and unfortunately it seems to affect the Conservatives more than other parties (but not exclusively so). People using Politics to push their religious beliefs are a bad bad thing.

[Guest Ricardomeister]

Has anybody ever seen Cameron on the Holte singing "My old man"? In fact has anybody ever seen this man of the people at Villa Park?

[drat01]

I'm very wary of the combination of religion and politics, and unfortunately it seems to affect the Conservatives more than other parties (but not exclusively so). People using Politics to push their religious beliefs are a bad bad thing.

That's a very interesting point Pete. This whole thing about marriage and how in some way that makes you worthy of more money from the Gvmt is a point that doesn't get debated enough. Also the views on homosexuality which it seems a certain party are certainly following the religious viewpoint.

Was it Clegg who said something the other night about faith?

[blandy]

Clegg said he's not a man of faith but he's bringing up his kids in his wife's Catholic faith - bit of a politicians answer, I guess, from him.

[VillaAndLoyal]

Before people start trying to attack my viewpoint - go ahead, I've listened to this constant Labour/Liberal bullshit for FAR too long on here to let it affect me in the slightest. That is my viewpoint. This is a public forum. The end.

and that sums it up perfectly. A perfect Tory response I may say. The stereo Type is there for all to see

At least Tony will debate - sometimes with a rabid right wing hat. :wink: (The loony left > rabid right)

And that is EXACTLY why I put that last sentence in, because the first thing you've done is not challenge me on anything policy-related, you've just tried to undermine my whole post by bringing out the old "stereotype" line which is predictable at best. I've absolutely no problem with debate, but that isn't what happens on here, is it? If you arn't Liberal, Labour or a spoilt ballot voter then you get shouted down, and attacked, as seen with your post.

If we carry on with Labour then I may as well leave the country now, and if you vote for Clegg in protest then you will end up with the ULTIMATE irony of changing precisely **** all in this country for the next five years.

Well **** off and go then, with that sort of attitude you can drink with the Phil Collins's of this world and wont be missed

My point is heightened further by this immature, if not wholly unexpected, comment. How exactly is that promoting debate? No, that's right, it's not.

down to un-elected Gordon Brown

Did you have a different voting paper to the rest of the UK, one with PM on it? No - get real we do not vote for a PM - are you and the Tory party will announce today it seems, saying then we should have a president?

When Blair left we should have had a vote on what Labour minister (if any) was best to run this country until the election. Brown walked straight into power with no mandate from the British people and then proceeded to extend the mess he had created as Chancellor. That's not what I call democracy, not when the country is clearly suffering as a result.

Christ he even supposedly supports the Villa - that is hardly the 'stereotype' of some big-wig out of touch Tory toff, is it?

Incredible - to claim that because he says he is a Villa fan suddenly makes him OK. If you want to go down that route see how he supposedly got this Villa allegiance - and if you were around at the time his family member ran this club you will also remember the contempt that he showed the fans at the time. If Cameron is a "man of the people" "down to earth" then you live in a different society to most of the people.

Your post cut have been cut and pasted from the Tory manifesto (price 5 pounds - profits to Belize printing). Cameron is not the man to take this country forward, you are seeing throughout this campaign where his priorities and those of his backers are.

The only thing incredible here is your spin. How about quoting the first bit of my sentence before launching into your diatribe? I didn't, as you say "claim that because he says he is a villa fan suddenly makes him okay". Going by your flawed assumption after quoting half of a sentence, I must also like Jacqui Smith as well? And I can't stand the horrible woman. Go and re-think your attack before spouting utter spin like that.

No, you might want to believe that, but it is not the case. I did not so much as glance at the Conservative manifesto let alone cut and paste from it

p.s.

They want more police on the streets and less meaningless paperwork and extravagant purchases like the police Lexus Cameron talked about last week.

- you do realise it was proven that Cameron lied about this?

Evidence? You Labour-ites are particularly good at claiming something without ever backing it up. My evidence? The leaflets printed by Labour which lied about Conservative AND SNP policy.

[PauloBarnesi]

I'm very wary of the combination of religion and politics, and unfortunately it seems to affect the Conservatives more than other parties (but not exclusively so). People using Politics to push their religious beliefs are a bad bad thing.

Maybe you have missed the current and last prime ministers; more affected by religion than any I think in living memory. Blair was candid enough not to mention it, but it wouldn’t be unfair to think he was driven by God. It wouldn’t be too far fetched to suggest that like George Bush he felt that starting wars because God told him to do so. That he educated his children at faith schools, either suggests he wanted to avoid school fees (and the trouble it would have caused him) or that actually is a true believer. Now of course he has converted to Catholicism and seems to be on a “crusade” of sorts in the Middle East. Now our current leader is the son of a minister of the church of Scotland. Now being the son of a religious leader, may not mean much, take Lemmy for example. I think that Brown may not be in particular religious; but his manner and attitude certainly would remind one of the minister in the pulpit; my wife is a labour supporter and scottish notes what a dour Presbyterian minister he can appear. Perhaps in retirement he could return to the kirk. Of course Brown is often likened to Chairman Mao, an atheist, but definitely a man who replaced god, with the cult of the individual.