Bollitics: VT General Election Poll #5 - Leaders Debate Two

[Awol]

I said I can't argue with the rest Gringo? And wasn't a fan of how keen they are on chucking away civil liberties? :?

I just picked up on the point being made that was completely stupid.

Freedom of the individual IS (well, was) the cornerstone of Britishness, so not stupid at all really, you just need to think a little harder about the implications of the rest which was highlighted by Gringo.

EDIT: And i also think the institution of marriage has been undermined and dismissed as largely not required by this Government, so both elements you describe as stupid I think are correct.

[Chindie]

I said I can't argue with the rest Gringo? And wasn't a fan of how keen they are on chucking away civil liberties? :?

I just picked up on the point being made that was completely stupid.

Freedom of the individual IS (well, was) the cornerstone of Britishness, so not stupid at all really, you just need to think a little harder about the implications of the rest which was highlighted by Gringo.

There's no definition of what is British, it's a completely alien concept. I'd like to think it does mean some things, but realistically it doesn't.

I had to do a minor exercise on the idea of nationalism, and we were asked what is Britishness, and the best I could find was someone born in the territory called the United Kingdom. It's a concept that doesn't really exist imo.

[Awol]

I said I can't argue with the rest Gringo? And wasn't a fan of how keen they are on chucking away civil liberties? :?

I just picked up on the point being made that was completely stupid.

Freedom of the individual IS (well, was) the cornerstone of Britishness, so not stupid at all really, you just need to think a little harder about the implications of the rest which was highlighted by Gringo.

There's no definition of what is British, it's a completely alien concept. I'd like to think it does mean some things, but realistically it doesn't.

I had to do a minor exercise on the idea of nationalism, and we were asked what is Britishness, and the best I could find was someone born in the territory called the United Kingdom. It's a concept that doesn't really exist imo.

Right well if you say so then there is clearly no such thing as Britishness and anyone who thinks differently should be dismissed as stupid.

Case closed your honour, take him down.

[Chindie]

I knew it was a mistake to post in here again.

[Gringo]

I knew it was a mistake to post in here again.

Debate is good for the soul

[Guest Ricardomeister]

Then I heard he was raising his kids catholic because of his wife, and it made me not want to vote for him. Guy doesn't have the balls to stand up to his wife over his beliefs, so how can we expect him to stand up for anything he believes in?

:notworthy: :-)

And if he had insisted that his kids were brought up as atheists then I am sure some Tory would have said he is so arrogant that he doesn't listen to his wife. That would be typical of the majority of Tories who twist things to suit their own warped agenda.

To say that he has not got the balls to stand up to his wife is rubbish of the highest order! I say well done Mr Clegg as you clearly have a marriage of give and take where you have learned that discussion and, sometimes, compromise is far better than the sort of dictatorship favoured by many Tories a la Fuhrer Thatchler!

[snowychap]

Then I heard he was raising his kids catholic because of his wife, and it made me not want to vote for him. Guy doesn't have the balls to stand up to his wife over his beliefs, so how can we expect him to stand up for anything he believes in?

:notworthy: :-)

And if he had insisted that his kids were brought up as atheists then I am sure some Tory would have said he is so arrogant that he doesn't listen to his wife. That would be typical of the majority of Tories who twist things to suit their own warped agenda.

To say that he has not got the balls to stand up to his wife is rubbish of the highest order! I say well done Mr Clegg as you clearly have a marriage of give and take where you have learned that discussion and, sometimes, compromise is far better than the sort of dictatorship favoured by many Tories a la Fuhrer Thatchler!

You do realize that the post Tony quoted was not made by 'some Tory' but someone (TheDon) who said earlier in this thread:

If labour hadn't had 13 years of mediocrity I'd vote for them without a second thought. That they have makes me question if I'm a fool to do so, but, I'll probably vote for them anyway, as the other two choices aren't at all appealing to me.

[snowychap]

I knew it was a mistake to post in here again.

Debate is good for the soul

No wonder politicians avoid it.

[Gringo]

Then I heard he was raising his kids catholic because of his wife, and it made me not want to vote for him. Guy doesn't have the balls to stand up to his wife over his beliefs, so how can we expect him to stand up for anything he believes in?

:notworthy: :-)

And if he had insisted that his kids were brought up as atheists then I am sure some Tory would have said he is so arrogant that he doesn't listen to his wife. That would be typical of the majority of Tories who twist things to suit their own warped agenda.

To say that he has not got the balls to stand up to his wife is rubbish of the highest order! I say well done Mr Clegg as you clearly have a marriage of give and take where you have learned that discussion and, sometimes, compromise is far better than the sort of dictatorship favoured by many Tories a la Fuhrer Thatchler!

You do realize that the post Tony quoted was not made by 'some Tory' but someone (TheDon) who said earlier in this thread:

If labour hadn't had 13 years of mediocrity I'd vote for them without a second thought. That they have makes me question if I'm a fool to do so, but, I'll probably vote for them anyway, as the other two choices aren't at all appealing to me.

I doubt if thedon's second post on clegg's arrangements for his children's upbringing had anything to do with politics, but more his [thedon] secular beliefs.

[snowychap]

I doubt if thedon's second post on clegg's arrangements for his children's upbringing had anything to do with politics, but more his [thedon] secular beliefs.

I'd guess that, too (TheDon can always correct us!). It had nowt to do with Tories, either.

[TheDon]

Then I heard he was raising his kids catholic because of his wife, and it made me not want to vote for him. Guy doesn't have the balls to stand up to his wife over his beliefs, so how can we expect him to stand up for anything he believes in?

:notworthy: :-)

And if he had insisted that his kids were brought up as atheists then I am sure some Tory would have said he is so arrogant that he doesn't listen to his wife. That would be typical of the majority of Tories who twist things to suit their own warped agenda.

To say that he has not got the balls to stand up to his wife is rubbish of the highest order! I say well done Mr Clegg as you clearly have a marriage of give and take where you have learned that discussion and, sometimes, compromise is far better than the sort of dictatorship favoured by many Tories a la Fuhrer Thatchler!

Give and take would surely be letting the children decide based on both parents explaining their views? Or hell, just do one atheist, one theist, and toss a coin for the 3rd.

An atheist agreeing to have his children brainwashed by the catholic church is not much of an atheist.

The cynic in me would say that he's just holding that banner up to gain the support of the ever growing atheist population. Strangely the young voters that the lib dems seem to focus so hard on gaining have a pretty high percentage of atheists in them, and many would see it as a huge plus point, whereas the votes he'll lose from not declaring his allegiance to God (especially as he's raising his kids catholic anyway) is probably tiny.

And yes, hilariously I'm not in any way shape or form Tory, and would be a willing attendee to Bickster's Thatcher's dead party.

I doubt if thedon's second post on clegg's arrangements for his children's upbringing had anything to do with politics, but more his [thedon] secular beliefs.

It'd say it's partly political. The way you deal with conflict in your private life surely shows a great deal about how you will in politics. People that are weak in one will likely be weak in the other. We don't have much insight into the capabilities of most candidates as leaders, so have to draw judgement from where ever we can.

Of course I'm assuming here, he might have agreed on the proviso that he gets nightly blowjobs and for 4 nights a month he can do 'er up the wrong 'un. In which case, I'd salute him and see it as a worthy sacrifice.

[drat01]

EDIT: The madness of drink has taken over VT

[Gringo]

EDIT: The madness of drink has taken over VT

What?

Normal debate carrying on? Does the embedded labour party messenger want to say somthing or not?

What?

Normal debate carrying on? Does the embedded labour party messenger want to say somthing or not?

Just incase you missed it the first time....

[Gringo]

I doubt if thedon's second post on clegg's arrangements for his children's upbringing had anything to do with politics, but more his [thedon] secular beliefs.

It'd say it's partly political. The way you deal with conflict in your private life surely shows a great deal about how you will in politics. People that are weak in one will likely be weak in the other. We don't have much insight into the capabilities of most candidates as leaders, so have to draw judgement from where ever we cant

Why is he weak? Compromise is weak?

I have two brothers who will drive the family to church on a sunday and sit outside or sit at the back, because they have agreed the children are brought up in a certain manner. They are hardly weak in their families, they still rule the roost as it were. But on an overall view they have accepted what is best for their kids.

[Guest Ricardomeister]

:shock:

[snowychap]

Wow thanks for pointing that out for me as I couldn't work it out for myself!

So why the nonsense of your post?

[TheDon]

I doubt if thedon's second post on clegg's arrangements for his children's upbringing had anything to do with politics, but more his [thedon] secular beliefs.

It'd say it's partly political. The way you deal with conflict in your private life surely shows a great deal about how you will in politics. People that are weak in one will likely be weak in the other. We don't have much insight into the capabilities of most candidates as leaders, so have to draw judgement from where ever we cant

Why is he weak? Compromise is weak?

I have two brothers who will drive the family to church on a sunday and sit outside or sit at the back, because they have agreed the children are brought up in a certain manner. They are hardly weak in their families, they still rule the roost as it were. But on an overall view they have accepted what is best for their kids.

I thought compromise was a middle solution. Bringing up his kids as Catholic doesn't seem like a middle solution to me, it seems like one of submission not compromise, seeing as the other party is getting exactly what they wanted, and you are not.

I just don't see how an atheist could ever accept that religious indoctrination is "what is best for their kids". Letting the kids decide when they are old enough, and if they want to be bought up religious going along with that, fine, but making the decision for them?

[Guest Ricardomeister]

:shock:

[Gringo]

I thought compromise was a middle solution. Bringing up his kids as Catholic doesn't seem like a middle solution to me, it seems like one of submission not compromise, seeing as the other party is getting exactly what they wanted, and you are not.

I just don't see how an atheist could ever accept that religious indoctrination is "what is best for their kids". Letting the kids decide when they are old enough, and if they want to be bought up religious going along with that, fine, but making the decision for them?

Politics and religion, hey.

Comrpomise might exist all across family life.

The fact that YOUR strict atheist position forbids others, even those close to you dabbling in religion, does not mean that other areas of their life are not more open.

Go form an atheist party, join the game, see how many votes you get.

democracy ftw

[chrisp65]

• 24 Apr 34 28 29 Con +5
  24 Apr 34 26 30 Con +4
  24 Apr 35 27 28 Con +7
  23 Apr 35 26 31 Con +4
  23 Apr 36 30 23 Con +6
  23 Apr 34 26 29 Con +5
  23 Apr 34 29 29 Con +5
  22 Apr 34 29 28 Con +5
  21 Apr 33 27 31 Con +2
  20 Apr 35 25 27 Con +8
  20 Apr 32 23 33 LD +1
  20 Apr 32 28 31 Con +1
  20 Apr 31 26 34 LD +3
  19 Apr 31 26 30 Con +1
  19 Apr 32 28 32 Tie
  19 Apr 35 26 26 Con +9
  19 Apr 33 27 31 Con +2
  19 Apr 32 24 32 Tie
  19 Apr 32 26 29 Con +3
  18 Apr 33 28 30 Con +3
  18 Apr 32 28 28 Con +4
  18 Apr 32 26 33 LD +1
  17 Apr 33 30 29 Con +3
  17 Apr 31 28 32 LD +1
  17 Apr 31 27 29 Con +2
  

list runs CON l LAB l LIB (but I just can't get it all to show up)

anorakpollblog

just a snapshot of the polls over the last week. Whilst no polling is spot on because of the quirks of FPTP and frankly people giving duff answers it does show a trend over the week for the tory lead to be stretching out or becoming consistent over the 'poll of polls'. Still showing a hung parliament, still close enough for a change in any direction. However it's also close enough for one dodgy stunt to lose it for any one particular party. One Elvis joke that goes wrong, one public appearance by John Redwood, who knows.

What is interesting is young Gordon announcing he was going to get out and meet more people, I wouldn't have thought that was necessarily his best tactic.

Interesting tactic from Clegg today, a day off to spend with the wife and kids (but with plenty of cameras to capture the day off and get some soundbites). I'm sure that will have done him more good than another speech to 10 people in a baked beans factory.

I had another doorstep experience today, another party called at the door today, informed me they knew my dad and a couple of my mates (it didn't come over in a sinister way!) and then quickly asked if they could put up a banner in my garden. Nice try but no thanks. Not trusting or interested enough in any of them for that sort of gesture thanks. On being very politely refused there was no attempt to engage in conversation it was turn and jog away consulting a clipboard.

just on a little side piece, loved some of the right of centre chat a couple of pages ago, probably summed up as 'loony left spread unfair slurs and stereotypes, I demand a fair debate, if I don't get my way I'm taking my ball off to Belize'. Good to see the selfish right can enjoy a drink just as much as the beautiful left.