The relative strength of the premier league

[villa4europe]

8 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

This

And soon you will see it in the saudi league 

Starters for 5th ranked country in the world being 6th choice for the club 7th in the league?

They are miles off that

[chrisp65]

PSV 5:1 Rangers

PSV’s 5th is an absolute peach. Not sure if its ok to post it, so go look for it yourselves.

[Marka Ragnos]

On 25/08/2023 at 01:04, Pinebro said:

Wanted to make a thread about this for a while.

We've seen West Ham who was really struggling last season breeze their way through to the Conference final and it was mind boggling seeing the difference in quality against Hibbs.

How strong in the premier league if you compare it to the other top leagues in Europe? And I'm not just talking about the top 2 or 3 teams but the league as a whole.

Great thread idea!

By "strong," I imagine you're probably talking in a commonsensical way about the quality of the football. This prompts me to picture hypothetical head-to-head match-ups between various respective leagues. Who would win, for example, between the clubs of the FA Premier League versus the clubs of the Dutch Eredivisie? I do think the Premier League is exactly twice as "strong" as La Liga, Serie A, Ligue 1, and the Bundesliga. It's almost exactly twice as rich. It wins all day long, largely because of that. Unless I'm mistaken, it's a €10bn league; those others are about €5bn leagues. It sort of affects things.

But of course, "strong" can be defined in so many ways! I would say that Serie A is especially weak, financially, because of the huge amounts of debt carried by so many of its top clubs. Even if it has some amazing players, the indebtedness will eventually catch up with it. La Liga also is not in great financial shape. 

Still, in my heart of hearts, I feel that a "strong league" in Europe is better defined as one that that serves its audiences well and offers great entertainment, regardless of which league's clubs would win against another league's clubs, which isn't all that hard to figure out, is it?

But how beloved are its clubs by its countrymen? How does one measure that? Shouldn't that count for something? I find Italian football hugely enjoyable. It's really such a unique game. I have a mate who finds it interminably dull, but I love the balletic, considered passages of play and the slower pace, and I really wouldn't want it to be like English PL football. So for me, in its context, Serie A is strong in particular way -- but a bit of a disaster in terms of finance and even the overall "quality" of the play when matched up on the pitch with the Premier League. I know you said Europe, but the Saudi league is really very popular in Saudi Arabia. There are all kind of troubling things about that league, but for the person in the stands, at a purely local level, there are probably some ways the Saudi Pro League offers the simple joys of spectating to regional audiences that end up being more intense and meaningful for them than watching Premier League matches on the telly.

It's an interesting question. Thanks.

Edited August 31, 2023 by Marka Ragnos

[MrBlack]

Newcastle's venture into the CL will give a good indication of the relative strength of the PL. They're not a top 4 team and punched way above their weight last season. If they progress in the CL then it really shows how much stronger the PL is. I don't think they will though.

West Ham massively under performed in the league, so they're not really a bottom 5 team. The fact they walked the conference league doesn't mean we will, but we should be expecting to make the semi- final provided the draw doesn't put us against one of the other top couple of clubs before the.

[Pinebro]

4 La liga teams in the knockout stage in the Champions League now vs 2 English teams...

[bobzy]

1 hour ago, Pinebro said:

4 La liga teams in the knockout stage in the Champions League now vs 2 English teams...

Probably as expected.  4/5 for Spain, 2/4 for England - Newcastle having the "Group of Death".

Maybe slight surprises that Man Utd didn't qualify and Real Sociedad did, but both scenarios were very possible (and, indeed, happened).

[Mic09]

Premier League is by far the strongest league.

There are various ways to measure this. I will discount viewership, because arguably Nicky Minaj has more YouTube views than say Steven Tyler.

Firstly, in the most recent edition of European competitions, PL won 2/3 European cups.

Secondly, if say West Ham played Rayo Vallecano OR Torino 100 times, I would argue they would win more games.

When it comes to Liverpool vs Barcelona, it's not even close. Liverpool probably win 75/100 games.

Margins gets smaller at the very top - If Man City play Inter or Madrid, I would say Man City win 50/100. But some games would end in a draw.

Of course, this is not verifiable, but I strongly believe Brighton or Newcastle would qualify for CL football in Bundesliga on regular basis. 

[HanoiVillan]

2 hours ago, Pinebro said:

4 La liga teams in the knockout stage in the Champions League now vs 2 English teams...

That does include the most likely winners of the whole competition though. 

[Jonesy7211]

2 hours ago, Pinebro said:

4 La liga teams in the knockout stage in the Champions League now vs 2 English teams...

I think it could be argued that the relative intensity of the leagues has an impact of how the English teams perform in Europe though. With the exception of a few clubs, there are no easy games in the PL. Just ask Utd. Or Arsenal and City after playing us. In some of the leagues as well they rearrange fixtures to maximize how their teams perform in Europe, giving more rest time or rearranging more challenging fixtures as their calendars allow it. The PL doesn't do that, they just want games on TV as often as possible.

That in-depth strength of the leagues just isn't comparable in Spain, Germany, or Italy. Look at the money spent and the quality of the players at teams like Brighton, Bournemouth, Fulham, and Brentford. They've all got players from the top European teams or players that are fancied by the top teams all over the world. Not to demean those clubs, and I think it's great they can bring top quality in, but they don't have huge following, grounds, or history in comparison to the level of quality they have.

[Zatman]

25 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

That does include the most likely winners of the whole competition though. 

Nah the PGMOL conspiracy will continue into Europe to foil Arsenal

[Zatman]

59 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

Premier League is by far the strongest league.

There are various ways to measure this. I will discount viewership, because arguably Nicky Minaj has more YouTube views than say Steven Tyler.

Firstly, in the most recent edition of European competitions, PL won 2/3 European cups.

Secondly, if say West Ham played Rayo Vallecano OR Torino 100 times, I would argue they would win more games.

When it comes to Liverpool vs Barcelona, it's not even close. Liverpool probably win 75/100 games.

Margins gets smaller at the very top - If Man City play Inter or Madrid, I would say Man City win 50/100. But some games would end in a draw.

Of course, this is not verifiable, but I strongly believe Brighton or Newcastle would qualify for CL football in Bundesliga on regular basis. 

This season we lost to Legia Warsaw, Arsenal lost to Lens, Brighton and West Ham both lost to Greek teams and Liverpool to Toulouse

Premier League is probably the strongest league but it's not that far ahead

[Mic09]

17 minutes ago, Zatman said:

This season we lost to Legia Warsaw, Arsenal lost to Lens, Brighton and West Ham both lost to Greek teams and Liverpool to Toulouse

Premier League is probably the strongest league but it's not that far ahead

It's a cup competition. Any team can lose a single game. Hence the excitement about it, otherwise they should just give the titles at the start of the season.

And while Villa and Arsenal both lost a single game, they are topping the groups. So, on average, with a number of games being played, they are the superior teams.

Brighton can win the group with Ajax, AEK and OM. West Ham are top with Freiburg and Olympiacos. 

Hence, I think that over 100 games, most PL teams would beat their equivalents from Europe. 

Another thing we should note is that it's football. You can be an excellent team in November, and a poor one in March and vice-versa. La Liga can be stronger in the winter, Bundesliga may have a better spring.

But, on average, PL is simply better. The degree of how much better cannot be verified. 

Edited December 14, 2023 by Mic09

[kurtsimonw]

I think it's a fairly good measurement of depth of clubs, albeit only at the top end, and the PL is quite clearly ahead.

It doesn't measure outside of European performance, of course. But I don't think it's crazy to suggest that the likes of Chelsea and Spurs would fare okay against none-European qualified sides from elsewhere.

 

[ThunderPower_14]

I think comparing European results isn't really comparing the strength of the league at all. The best teams across the big leagues are roughly even. Where the real strength of the premier league lies is in it's depth. The lower half of the league is very good comparatively and it's supported by the clearcut best 2nd division in world football.

I'd argue that the top end of the premier league (bar Man City with infinite money and no rules to play by) has been hurt by the league being so competitive. It's harder to attract the elite level of players when you're in a huge battle each season to even qualify for the Champions League, when players can just waltz over to one of the top teams in basically any other league and all but guarantee themselves a CL spot. The counter to that is that PL teams are generally more battle hardened because there are very few easy games at PL level.

 

[Zatman]

5 hours ago, ThunderPower_14 said:

I think comparing European results isn't really comparing the strength of the league at all. The best teams across the big leagues are roughly even. Where the real strength of the premier league lies is in it's depth. The lower half of the league is very good comparatively and it's supported by the clearcut best 2nd division in world football.

I'd argue that the top end of the premier league (bar Man City with infinite money and no rules to play by) has been hurt by the league being so competitive. It's harder to attract the elite level of players when you're in a huge battle each season to even qualify for the Champions League, when players can just waltz over to one of the top teams in basically any other league and all but guarantee themselves a CL spot. The counter to that is that PL teams are generally more battle hardened because there are very few easy games at PL level.

 

I dont believe the Premier League is that competitive. As a comparison though its just a random comparison but the gap from 4th place to the relegation zone is currently 24 points the same as La Liga, Serie A is 13 points, Ligue 1 is 15 points, Bundesliga is 19 points 

That for me suggests its not that competitive

[ender4]

6 of the 8 English teams that were in the group stages finished TOP of their respective groups. That's impressive. 

Newcastle struggled but they really did have a strong group and a lot of injuries. Man Utd have declined or are in a rough patch. 

Overall English teams are really strong in Europe.

[AXD]

A lot of focus in previous posts on the European teams. That only covers half of it. A league is as strong as its bottom teams. My guess is even teams like Burnley would be able to do well in the conference league.

also, it’s not because PSG plays the semi final of the CL that the French league is top class. PSG, Bayern, they walk their respective leagues every year. In Spain, there’s 3 teams (this year is a strange one). In Italy, there a bit more rotation at the top, but never a team that could wint the CL. The PL has the Sky6 that could win the CL if they have a good season, now us and Newcastle are added to that. Chelsea and ManU are in a dip, but still decent teams who could do something in the EL or ECL. So there are more teams competing.

plus the money makes it that a bottom PL team could buy most players in Italy or Spain.

[kurtsimonw]

4 hours ago, Zatman said:

I dont believe the Premier League is that competitive. As a comparison though its just a random comparison but the gap from 4th place to the relegation zone is currently 24 points the same as La Liga, Serie A is 13 points, Ligue 1 is 15 points, Bundesliga is 19 points 

That for me suggests its not that competitive

It depends what you mean by 'competitive', any you can make an argument for literally any league being so.

Is the Brasileirao the most competitive league in World football? 27 points between title and relegation, 6 teams were within a shout of the title with 3 games to go. Or is it just that there is not especially any stand out quality that everything is average, and in that sense is it being 'competitive' even a good thing?

[NoelVilla]

If we win the Conference League it is very likely that all three European competitions will be won by a Premier League team(Man City and Liverpool).

[MWARLEY2]

Its in a cycle where it is getting more and more competitive. If you get your recruitment right and your manager right there is a real chance to do something due to the huge finances. It isnt all about the best players any more. Its the tactical nouse and also improving players that are good and turning them into great ones.