2023 Grand National

[bobzy]

3 minutes ago, a-k said:

Around 40 horses per year die during equestrian. Let's ban that activity.

40 horses per year die in road traffic accidents. Let's ban cars too.

https://www.equesure.co.uk/contact-us/news-events/how-many-horses-are-killed-on-the-uk-s-roads/

Sadly, far too many people drive like idiots.  All the roads round by me are 20mph, and there's a stables in the middle of the area (suburban Victorian houses).  The amount of times I've seen cars - most often driven by young lads - well in excess of 30mph and not slowing down for horses with kids on the back is genuinely staggering.

But yes, I'd ban a fair few people from living  

[a-k]

4 minutes ago, DaveAV1 said:

I understand your point but race horses aren’t an unwilling participant. A mate of mine bought an ex race horse for his daughter. After his retirement from competitive racing Murphy lived to be a ripe old age. He had a lovely character and wasn’t at all nervous. I’m not an expert but I’d say he didn’t have a bad day in his life, either when he was working or after his retirement. They race because they love it. 

Exactly, If a 500kg horse doesn't want to race, there's nothing a 55kg jockey can do about it. There was no problem with the horse in the video below, just decided he didn't want to run.

 

[Genie]

4 minutes ago, a-k said:

Around 40 horses per year die during equestrian. Let's ban that activity.

40 horses per year die in road traffic accidents. Let's ban cars too.

https://www.equesure.co.uk/contact-us/news-events/how-many-horses-are-killed-on-the-uk-s-roads/

That’s a bit like gun/knife argument isn’t it.

Ban guns, sure, no downside. 
Ban knives, well how am I supposed to cut things now?

Ban horse racing, sure, 99.9% of people wouldn’t care.

Ban cars…  

[AvfcRigo82]

14 minutes ago, bobzy said:

Always given as some nonsense argument.  They can go to stables and kids can learn to ride horses for fun, without racing them round.  Problem solved.

Not really. It's a genuine valid question.

I wouldn't feel comfortable throwing a child on board a 2 tonne horse to learn to ride. They have Shetland Ponies for this and smaller horses that stand in fields all day.

These race horses are bred to race - not bred as pets to keep in your garden.

What do we do with the tens of thousands of horses that are Bred to race?

 

[bobzy]

6 minutes ago, DaveAV1 said:

And where would you find the tens of thousands of kids with the land and stables, let alone the feed and veterinary bills? 

 

Just now, AvfcRigo82 said:

Not really. It's a genuine valid question.

I wouldn't feel comfortable throwing a child on board a 2 tonne horse to learn to ride. They have Shetland Ponies for this and smaller horses that stand in fields all day.

These race horses are bred to race - not bred as pets to keep in your garden.

What do we do with the tens of thousands of horses that are Bred to race?

OK, we're going to carry on with the silly questions

 

We race them all until they die or retire during their racing career and then horse racing is done.  This lark is easy.

[AvfcRigo82]

3 minutes ago, bobzy said:

OK, we're going to carry on with the silly questions

Why is it silly?

It's no different to the questions being put to these so-called animal welfare protestors who "want to have a conversation about race horse welfare" but yet can't seem to answer any genuine questions that are put to them either.

[fightoffyour]

8 minutes ago, AvfcRigo82 said:

What do we do with the tens of thousands of horses that are Bred to race?

Not breed them presumably?

I say this as a fan of racing, but that just seems like the obvious answer.

Edited April 18, 2023 by fightoffyour

[blandy]

Racehorses have been selectively bred over decades, centuries even, to have the characteristics to be the fastest. That breeding has led to them loving to race and gallop, but also to them being at risk of injury or death if they fall. If horsing was ended as a sport, it would unlikely be an instant stop, more likely a gradual decline in the number of horsing events and a cultural loss of interest in it and finally a banning of it as it becomes seen as unacceptable. In parallel with that decline would be a decline in the numbers of thoroughbred horses bred, so “what would you do with the 20,000 racehorses?” is not really the right question. Another thing is gambling. I mean look at football- there are all kinds of campaigns and actions to remove betting sponsorship from clubs and shirts. Ban gambling and horsing becomes completely uneconomical and would pretty much come to an end. It might not seem like it today, with all the betting companies lobbying and funding politicians, but do we think that in20 or 30 years time gambling will be on anything like the scale it is now?  I don’t.

[DaveAV1]

4 minutes ago, bobzy said:

 

OK, we're going to carry on with the silly questions

 

We race them all until they die or retire during their racing career and then horse racing is done.  This lark is easy.

And the tens of thousands of people employed in the horse racing industry. What would they do?

This lark isn’t easy, you’re just choosing to take a simplistic view of it. One of the arguments for F1 is that they are at the forefront of advancement in technology that filters down to everyday cars. There’s a similar argument for advancement in Veterinary science that filters down to the less well funded horses and animals in general. 

[AvfcRigo82]

1 minute ago, fightoffyour said:

Not breed them presumably?

I say this as a fan of racing, but that just seems like the obvious answer.

Fair enough.

What about equestrian, dressage, show jumping and polo? Do we stop all that too? Given that alot of show jumpers are ex-national hunt race horses.

Again, I don't want to come across pedantic. Just a genuine question (to anyone)

 

 

[blandy]

3 minutes ago, AvfcRigo82 said:

It's no different to the questions being put to these so-called animal welfare protestors who "want to have a conversation about race horse welfare" but yet can't seem to answer any genuine questions that are put to them either.

I’ve only heard the one, but while you’re right she didn’t answer all the questions, she wasn’t accepting the line of questioning (rightly, IMO, in terms of her case). And here’s why: she outlined a view which said “we want to see an end to all animals being exploited or put at risk for our entertainment, we know it won’t happen immediately, but we can get there and these are the advantages of doing so…etc”. and “the protest was to ignite conversation and consideration of the issue”.

So there’s an end goal and then there’s the specific single protest. So questions about “what happens to the horses if racing is stopped (now)?” or “what about pet dogs?” are kind of the interviewer not really just seeking to understand either the principle or the specifics, but instead asking about hypotheticals that the woman wasn’t there to talk about and wasn’t suggesting.

Or in simple terms, her take on it was “horsing is bad, I’d like to see animal exploitation ended, but I know it’s not going to happen overnight, the protest was a small step to get people talking about the issue”.

[blandy]

8 minutes ago, DaveAV1 said:

There’s a similar argument for advancement in Veterinary science that filters down to the less well funded horses and animals in general. 

Is there? I’m not convinced. What’s the advances made around “horse has broken its leg, I know, let’s treat it by shooting a bolt through its brain”

[AvfcRigo82]

11 minutes ago, blandy said:

 Another thing is gambling. I mean look at football- there are all kinds of campaigns and actions to remove betting sponsorship from clubs and shirts. Ban gambling and horsing becomes completely uneconomical and would pretty much come to an end. It might not seem like it today, with all the betting companies lobbying and funding politicians, but do we think that in20 or 30 years time gambling will be on anything like the scale it is now?  I don’t.

I know this is venturing slightly off topic, but bookies have too much of a say nowadays and betting has changed dramatically in the last 20 or so years.

Football and Heroin terminals (Roulette machines) make up most of the betting companies profits now more than horse racing does.

Smoke filled betting shops from the 80's and 90's were forever crammed with punters betting on horses and dogs - football coupons and spot the ball was your options of football.

Go into any betting shop these days and most of them are ghost towns with a few people throwing money into these crack machines.

Again, it's change driven by the influence of bookmakers and having too much say in sport than what they used to.

But I guess that conversation is a whole thread for itself.

Anyway, Back to horses...

[KentVillan]

19 minutes ago, DaveAV1 said:

And the tens of thousands of people employed in the horse racing industry. What would they do?

This lark isn’t easy, you’re just choosing to take a simplistic view of it. One of the arguments for F1 is that they are at the forefront of advancement in technology that filters down to everyday cars. There’s a similar argument for advancement in Veterinary science that filters down to the less well funded horses and animals in general. 

You can make this argument about gun manufacturing or drug trafficking or anything else that generates money and jobs and scientific advances.

I’m pretty ambivalent about horse racing, but the idea that it’s essential or irreversible in any way is bollocks.

[fightoffyour]

32 minutes ago, AvfcRigo82 said:

Fair enough.

What about equestrian, dressage, show jumping and polo? Do we stop all that too? Given that alot of show jumpers are ex-national hunt race horses.

Again, I don't want to come across pedantic. Just a genuine question (to anyone)

I don't want it to stop, but if it / all of the above-mentioned events did stop for whatever reason then I just don't feel like the question as to what to with all the horses is particularly relevant, as they simply wouldn't / shouldn't be bred in that case.

Edited April 18, 2023 by fightoffyour

[bobzy]

33 minutes ago, DaveAV1 said:

And the tens of thousands of people employed in the horse racing industry. What would they do?

This lark isn’t easy, you’re just choosing to take a simplistic view of it. One of the arguments for F1 is that they are at the forefront of advancement in technology that filters down to everyday cars. There’s a similar argument for advancement in Veterinary science that filters down to the less well funded horses and animals in general. 

They’d presumably (try to) find another job? Just like anyone who is made redundant?

[chrisp65]

2 hours ago, DaveAV1 said:

40 dead in 50 years, how many horses have been saved due to the excellent care they receive and the big advances in veterinary science in the last 50?

I would imagine a lot more people have died in the pursuit of interests such as mountain climbing, scuba diving, sailing etc. Also the volunteers who regularly risk and sometimes lose their lives, such as mountain rescue or the RNLI. Should we ban all sports and interests? Particularly motor sport and boxing? Perhaps philately would be ok or some light brass rubbing?

No idea how many horses have been injured and saved by the vets. Are you suggesting large numbers are injured in this way?

The point about free will amongst horses and scuba stevers has already been covered.

 

On the point up thread about horses bred for racing loving racing and the jobs built around it, I guess we should also bring back dog fights? We’re on a gradual arc of understanding animal welfare. Of course there will always be people that can’t wrench themselves away from the old traditional cruelties, but we get there in the end. Fewer people enjoy fox hunting or badger baiting anymore, so we do eventually educate the vested interests and the gamblers and the people entertained by such things. We’ll get there.

 

 

[LondonLax]

3 hours ago, AvfcRigo82 said:

Not really. It's a genuine valid question.

I wouldn't feel comfortable throwing a child on board a 2 tonne horse to learn to ride. They have Shetland Ponies for this and smaller horses that stand in fields all day.

These race horses are bred to race - not bred as pets to keep in your garden.

What do we do with the tens of thousands of horses that are Bred to race?

 

Not a big deal, you’d just phase it out. Start by stopping breeding more race horses then wind up the whole thing when the last group retire.

[VILLAMARV]

IIRC when circus animals were banned in the US a few years back the same question of what to do with them was asked. The Elephants ended up in big refuges where they;ll roam about until there's no more Elephants.

I have no dog in this fight. But the answer to that question seems pretty obvious, whether you do or don't like horse racing.

[CVByrne]

3 hours ago, blandy said:

Racehorses have been selectively bred over decades, centuries even, to have the characteristics to be the fastest. That breeding has led to them loving to race and gallop, but also to them being at risk of injury or death if they fall. If horsing was ended as a sport, it would unlikely be an instant stop, more likely a gradual decline in the number of horsing events and a cultural loss of interest in it and finally a banning of it as it becomes seen as unacceptable. In parallel with that decline would be a decline in the numbers of thoroughbred horses bred, so “what would you do with the 20,000 racehorses?” is not really the right question. Another thing is gambling. I mean look at football- there are all kinds of campaigns and actions to remove betting sponsorship from clubs and shirts. Ban gambling and horsing becomes completely uneconomical and would pretty much come to an end. It might not seem like it today, with all the betting companies lobbying and funding politicians, but do we think that in 20 or 30 years time gambling will be on anything like the scale it is now?  I don’t.

Society will battle over what people want or deem acceptable on all topics you can possibly imagine and societal norms and tastes will change over time as a result. Smoking, Drinking, Gambling, hurting peoples feelings with mean words. Whatever, society has, will and always will change over time. We have bred mutant dogs that can barely walk because the look cute just to have in a persons handbag. That's socially acceptable now but in 20 years? Or we have selectively bred farm animals to maximise the meat yield, will meat consumption be as high?

Whatever the future holds for society, the people protesting everything don't actually care about an outcome of saving horses lives they care about the their own tribe and how the appear to others in their tribe. I feel there is enough strength within the horse racing fans and industry to remain strong for decade to come against those who seek to tear the industry down.