2023 Grand National

[Rds1983]

1 hour ago, hogso said:

Ah, that's because fish don't have a soul, it's a common misconception. Horses 100% defo do. 

Yeah everyone knows that it's only the ginger fish that don't have souls.

Edited April 16, 2023 by Rds1983

[AvfcRigo82]

On 15/04/2023 at 22:05, chrisp65 said:

It’s important the race is dangerous enough for horses to regularly die, makes it more entertaining for the gamblers.

What a ridiculous comment to make.

[blandy]

On 16/04/2023 at 08:47, Rds1983 said:

As others said the higher profile of the even is probably why it gets more attention from protesters.

There's that, and the fact that it's easily the most deadly race for horses. Flat racing sees almost no horses die, jump racing it's something like 0.42% die and the National is something like 1.2% die. It's due to the high fences and long length of the race that it's much more hazardous.

[AvfcRigo82]

On 16/04/2023 at 08:47, Rds1983 said:

3 horses died this weekend due to taking part. Think it's fairly straightforward why some people might object to that when considering what they died for is just light entertainment and gambling. 

As others said the higher profile of the even is probably why it gets more attention from protesters.

If these idiots actually had a clue and gave a toss as much as they make out, then they need to all get on a plane and get themselves over to Australia immediately.

During their spring season over there, their stats are something close to 1 horse dying every second day.

Santa Anita racecourse in California was shut down a couple of years ago for being so dangerous.

Where were these so-called 'caring clowns' and their protests while this is all happening???

Yes Aintree has it's reputation, and to be fair to the Jockey Club, BHA and Aintree Racecourse have listened and taken huge measures in the last 10 years to modernise the course/fences and reduce the risk of fatalities by introducing more safety measures etc.

Since the various new safety measures have been introduced at Aintree, approx 5 horses have died in the Grand National Since, (or 1 horse every 2 years).

Aintree is no longer the dangerous course it once was in the past and they will only work on making it safer for the future.

However, the actions of these attention seeking airheads on Saturday actually caused these animals more harm than it did good!

 

[hogso]

18 minutes ago, AvfcRigo82 said:

If these idiots actually had a clue and gave a toss as much as they make out, then they need to all get on a plane and get themselves over to Australia immediately.

During their spring season over there, their stats are something close to 1 horse dying every second day.

Santa Anita racecourse in California was shut down a couple of years ago for being so dangerous.

Where were these so-called 'caring clowns' and their protests while this is all happening???

Yes Aintree has it's reputation, and to be fair to the Jockey Club, BHA and Aintree Racecourse have listened and taken huge measures in the last 10 years to modernise the course/fences and reduce the risk of fatalities by introducing more safety measures etc.

Since the various new safety measures have been introduced at Aintree, approx 5 horses have died in the Grand National Since, (or 1 horse every 2 years).

Aintree is no longer the dangerous course it once was in the past and they will only work on making it safer for the future.

However, the actions of these attention seeking airheads on Saturday actually caused these animals more harm than it did good!

You seem way more informed than me, and I heard similar comments made by the various owners and experts during the coverage on ITV. 

Which made me think, if I was one of those protesters, and had been given some air time to respond to those responses, what might I say?

Perhaps I'd ask why the horses are whipped to the finishing line.

Why are they? Do they really need to be? How often are fines issued or riders disqualified for excessive whipping? Did that happen during this years Grand National?

I've done some googling to try and answer the questions in advance, but there's not a wealth of answers I have confidence in. I can only find one example of a disqualification this year due to excessive whipping, for example. How did that go done amongst riders, owners, and betters?

[CVByrne]

42 minutes ago, hogso said:

You seem way more informed than me, and I heard similar comments made by the various owners and experts during the coverage on ITV. 

Which made me think, if I was one of those protesters, and had been given some air time to respond to those responses, what might I say?

Perhaps I'd ask why the horses are whipped to the finishing line.

Why are they? Do they really need to be? How often are fines issued or riders disqualified for excessive whipping? Did that happen during this years Grand National?

I've done some googling to try and answer the questions in advance, but there's not a wealth of answers I have confidence in. I can only find one example of a disqualification this year due to excessive whipping, for example. How did that go done amongst riders, owners, and betters?

Whip is designed to make a loud noise and tell a horse to give maximum effort. The modern whip is made of foam and doesn't hurt the horse. You can be hit with the whip on an open palm of a human hand and it sounds very loud (the intention) and it'll sting. But that's your palm not the thick ass of a 1 ton horse.

The animals are incredibly well looked after. Many horses lives are saved from general illnesses that afflict horses like colic simply by the level of care they get. Yes also some horses die during racing or training too.

Horse racing is an easy target for these militant protestors. 5 times more horses are slaughtered for their meat in the EU per year than are racing horses in the UK/Ire. We all happily eat a plethora of animals from Pigs to Cows to Deer to Lambs. We just don't think of the food we get in supermarkets as slaughtered animals. 

For a race horse how is life and the risks any different than human pets? 230,000 cats are hit by cars each year (according to petplan). Jumping a fence for a horse or running across a road for a Cat. Human caused dangers.

[chrisp65]

5 hours ago, AvfcRigo82 said:

What a ridiculous comment to make.

So, you think after these horses have died they are going to reassess the course and redesign the jumps and the number of runners?

Like bollocks they will. It’s designed in. We all know that, because the proof is that it would be so easy to design it out, but they haven’t.

Let’s just stop pretending it’s anything else but part of the entertainment.

 

[AvfcRigo82]

3 hours ago, hogso said:

Why are they? Do they really need to be? How often are fines issued or riders disqualified for excessive whipping? Did that happen during this years Grand National?

I've done some googling to try and answer the questions in advance, but there's not a wealth of answers I have confidence in. I can only find one example of a disqualification this year due to excessive whipping, for example. How did that go done amongst riders, owners, and betters?

As highlighted already by @CVByrnehorse whips nowadays are much more different and lighter.

The purpose of the whip is for horsmanship and safety across all equine events.

Bans and fines are issued to jockeys who use the whip excessively.

[AvfcRigo82]

11 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

So, you think after these horses have died they are going to reassess the course and redesign the jumps and the number of runners?

Like bollocks they will.

Let’s just stop pretending it’s anything else but part of the entertainment.

I don't think anything. It's fact that they have done so already.

If further safety measures are required they will have no hesitation in implementing them either.

But you're welcome to your opinion telling yourself it's for "entertainment". It's nothing short of the same ignorance displayed by those morons on Saturday.

[chrisp65]

25 minutes ago, AvfcRigo82 said:

I don't think anything. It's fact that they have done so already.

If further safety measures are required they will have no hesitation in implementing them either.

But you're welcome to your opinion telling yourself it's for "entertainment". It's nothing short of the same ignorance displayed by those morons on Saturday.

 

40 horses dead in the last 50 years.

Are you saying they’ve just been a bit unlucky? 

Do educate me out of my ignorance on how its not possible to design a safer race.

[Rds1983]

2 hours ago, CVByrne said:

For a race horse how is life and the risks any different than human pets? 230,000 cats are hit by cars each year (according to petplan). Jumping a fence for a horse or running across a road for a Cat. Human caused dangers.

Complete agree.

Let's ban horse racing and also stop people from owning cats as they're horrible little creatures. 

Win-win.

[CVByrne]

The Grand National is meant to be a difficult test for horses jumping abilities and stamina and that of the jockeys. They have adapted the fences over years to make it easier to jump and less dangerous, including the watering of the track to soften the ground.

Horses running at speed and jumping fences has inherent dangers and that has always been the case since steeple chasing became a thing. The Grand National is just one of thousands of races. It's also not the only race over those types of fences. 

The Grand National has 4-5x as many fatalities than the average for Steeple Chases (though when compared to races over long distances with 20+ runners that number drops). There are 32,000 runners over jumps in a season in UK. The Grand National is just one tiny sample of the entire race season. 

We live in western democratic world. We will always have people protest everything. That's just the way it is. 

 

 

[gwi1890]

4 minutes ago, Rds1983 said:

Complete agree.

Let's ban horse racing and also stop people from owning cats as they're horrible little creatures. 

Win-win.

It’s not just that though is it, I live in the country side and over the last 10 years we’ve seen multiple city dwellers with no idea about rural life move here, they all have this idea that it would be nice to own a few animals and a horse. It’s shocking the absolute state and conditions some of the horses live in and they try to convince themselves on daily basis that they’re giving it a good life. 

[blandy]

2 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

40 horses dead in the last 50 years.

Are you saying they’ve just been a bit unlucky? 

Do educate me out of my ignorance on how its not possible to design a safer race.

Sorry to interject, but there's more to it than that, isn't there? I mean I'm not into horsing or any of that stuff, but as I understand it they have done things to the course to make it less unsafe, but it's still the unsafest horsing race, as I posted previously. But the thing is lots of stuff that's done for the entertainment of others is inherently unsafe - Football is - dementia and broken limbs and stuff, but we still do football for "fun". Rugby and people getting paralysed, Competitive traffic where the men drive all fast round in loops. So the question isn't (perhaps?) "should horsing be banned", but "what level of horsing deaths are acceptable?" and then it's just people's different perceptions of what's acceptable (if regrettable).

I went to horsing once in my life, as it was a mate's stag do. it was not my cup of tea at all, but it was frankly kind of impressive and astounding watching the horses and the speed and power of them, all with little men clinging on to their backs. Most people seemed to be there, either to drink lots of drink, or to bet lots of money and the people actually watching the horsing, as opposed to drinking in the tents was small. But I suppose after you've seen one horse thunder past, you've seen them all.

Now, back to the grown up conversation...

[Rds1983]

1 minute ago, gwi1890 said:

It’s not just that though is it, I live in the country side and over the last 10 years we’ve seen multiple city dwellers with no idea about rural life move here, they all have this idea that it would be nice to own a few animals and a horse. It’s shocking the absolute state and conditions some of the horses live in and they try to convince themselves on daily basis that they’re giving it a good life. 

Having grown up in North Devon and seen plenty of city folk move down and cause no end of problems I completely agree.

Ban horse racing.

Ban owning a cat.

Ban city folk moving to the countryside. 

Win-win-win.

I think I might be on to something here...

[chrisp65]

5 minutes ago, blandy said:

Sorry to interject, but there's more to it than that, isn't there? I mean I'm not into horsing or any of that stuff, but as I understand it they have done things to the course to make it less unsafe, but it's still the unsafest horsing race,

5 dead horses in the last 4 runs of the race would suggest they should maybe re examine exactly how they’ve made it less unsafe.

 

[Davkaus]

4 hours ago, AvfcRigo82 said:

If these idiots actually had a clue and gave a toss as much as they make out, then they need to all get on a plane and get themselves over to Australia immediately.

During their spring season over there, their stats are something close to 1 horse dying every second day.

Santa Anita racecourse in California was shut down a couple of years ago for being so dangerous.

Where were these so-called 'caring clowns' and their protests while this is all happening???

Yes Aintree has it's reputation, and to be fair to the Jockey Club, BHA and Aintree Racecourse have listened and taken huge measures in the last 10 years to modernise the course/fences and reduce the risk of fatalities by introducing more safety measures etc.

Since the various new safety measures have been introduced at Aintree, approx 5 horses have died in the Grand National Since, (or 1 horse every 2 years).

Aintree is no longer the dangerous course it once was in the past and they will only work on making it safer for the future.

However, the actions of these attention seeking airheads on Saturday actually caused these animals more harm than it did good!

 

TIL you can't object to anything being wrong in your town or country unless you travel internationally to protest more serious problems.

Why are we talking about any of this while there's a war in Ukraine?

[AvfcRigo82]

19 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

40 horses dead in the last 50 years. 

Do educate me out of my ignorance on how its not possible to design a safer race.

But yet, only 5 horses dead in the last 10 years... 

So safety has kicked in somewhere.

[Davkaus]

1 minute ago, chrisp65 said:

5 dead horses in the last 4 runs of the race would suggest they should maybe re examine exactly how they’ve made it less unsafe.

 

The current strategy seems to put their fingers in their ears and blame the people trying to protest for it to stop. Not sure how they've been causing the deaths in previous years though, must be a hell of a protest

[Rds1983]

I'm finding this thread strangely fascinating and thought provoking. Some of my previous posts are somewhat tongue in cheek but it has definitely got me thinking.

I've been to multiple horse races in the past and placed bets. However I've not done this since shortly after leaving Uni about 15 years ago.

Since then, for various reasons I've grown to dislike gambling and especially dislike corporate gambling such as betting sites/bookies/casinos etc. Without the gambling element I also find horse racing to be a fairly boring activity to watch.

I consider myself an animal lover and if it wasn't for being absolutely awful at Chemistry it was my intention to become a Vet. However, having grown up in the countryside I'm very aware that animals are at a level below humans and they are food/pets/entertainment. 

This was emphasised during my degree when I studied animal law and saw how legally they are basically a specialised type of property without real rights and from a legal perspective not much different than something like a toaster.

What it boils down to is welfare in terms of how well the animal is cared for and trying to balance any abuse (for want of a better word) against the potential benefits.

Looking at what's been posted and learning a bit more about it all, I'm not sure I'd be comfortable that it's an acceptable loss for horses to die purely so that people can enjoy watching them race and have a bet. Even if it's low numbers and not as extreme it seems to be a less brutal version of something like bullfighting or fox hunting.