Zhan_Zhuang Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 Just now, Stevo985 said: At his peak I don’t see any reason why Messi wouldn’t have bettered that tally It's possible for sure, look I love Messi honestly I do and I'm not belittling him at all. Just, it's Maradona for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 2 hours ago, messi11 said: Messi vs Pele: Records: Arguable Accolades: Messi Individual honors: Messi Dribbling: Messi Passing: Messi Heading: Pele Finishing: Arguable Long Range Shooting: Messi Free Kicks: Messi Final Score: Messi 6-1 Pele Messi vs Maradona: Records: Messi Accolades: Messi Individual honors: Messi Dribbling: Maradona Passing: Messi Heading: Arguable Finishing: Arguable Long Range Shooting: Messi Free Kicks: Messi Final Score: Messi 6-1 Maradona Dont really agree with much of that. Pele was great at dribbling so was Maradona. Also I'd like to see Messi shoot from long range with those balls they used back in the 60s. They were all great players but making these type of comparisions is rediculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post TomC Posted December 19, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted December 19, 2022 These debates are always fun and never conclusive. I agree that the bias towards today's players will always be there. We've all seen Maradona's and Pelé's highlights, but how many actually saw them throughout their careers? You'd have to be over 80 for Pelé and over 50 for Maradona. Hardly anyone alive saw Di Stefano. It's hard for most people to believe that anyone is better than what they saw week-in, week-out for years. And we all have attachments to our boyhood heroes. For Villa, the older folks around here are going to be attached to Sid Cowans or Dennis Mortimer; people a little younger are going to say Paul McGrath; the really young (if they can get over their anger) will say Jack Grealish. Only a history nerd like me is going to make the case for Billy Walker or Pongo Waring. It's also hard to compare players from different eras because things are so different. But if you're the greatest in your era, you'd probably be the (co-)greatest in any era. If you dropped an adult Pelé into today's game, he'd probably be lost at first because of the pace and the tactical sophistication, but he would probably adapt. He'd certainly rise to the top if you dropped him into today's youth systems at 5 years old; he had talent. In reverse, if you dropped an adult Messi into Pelé's time, he'd have to adapt to leather balls and rough pitches. If you dropped him into Maradona's time, he's have to adapt to getting hacked without sanction. It would probably be an easier adjustment than the other direction, but it would still be an adjustment. This is true in any sport. In tennis, how do you compare Rod Laver to Federer-Nadal-Djokovic when he played with wood rackets and had the amateur/pro divide? In ice hockey, how do you compare Gordie Howe to Wayne Gretzky when Gordie started with awful ice surfaces (no Zamboni yet) and flat stick blades? Another factor in the debate is: do you compare a whole career, or do you compare peak to peak? Messi and Pelé are both ahead of Maradona if you go by the whole career because they lasted longer and didn't self destruct. Maradona is in the debate because his peak is on a level with theirs. Again, other sports have parallels. In golf, Jack Nicklaus did it for longer than Tiger Woods and racked up more titles, but Woods' peak was at least the same level or arguably higher. How do you compare players who played different positions? Zatman already brought up Maldini. Even more extreme, how do you compare a goalkeeper like, say, Lev Yashin? Again, parallels in other sports: in ice hockey, how do you compare Bobby Orr to Gretzky or Howe when he was a defenseman? In basketball, how do you compare Wilt Chamberlain to Michael Jordan or LeBron James when he was a center? Even more subjective things come into play. How many people prefer Messi over Ronaldo simply because Ronaldo comes across as arrogant? In the end, you can't compare on any objective basis. That's why I disagree vehemently when people say things like, "Messi is the GOAT, the debate is over." No, the debate isn't over and never will be. All that changed yesterday is that the last excuse for excluding Messi from the debate is gone. He's in the debate without question, as Maradona and Pelé always will be. It's all subjective. And I vote 1. Pelé 2. Messi 3. Maradona. 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tegis Posted December 19, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted December 19, 2022 9 minutes ago, TomC said: These debates are always fun and never conclusive. I agree that the bias towards today's players will always be there. We've all seen Maradona's and Pelé's highlights, but how many actually saw them throughout their careers? You'd have to be over 80 for Pelé and over 50 for Maradona. Hardly anyone alive saw Di Stefano. It's hard for most people to believe that anyone is better than what they saw week-in, week-out for years. And we all have attachments to our boyhood heroes. For Villa, the older folks around here are going to be attached to Sid Cowans or Dennis Mortimer; people a little younger are going to say Paul McGrath; the really young (if they can get over their anger) will say Jack Grealish. Only a history nerd like me is going to make the case for Billy Walker or Pongo Waring. It's also hard to compare players from different eras because things are so different. But if you're the greatest in your era, you'd probably be the (co-)greatest in any era. If you dropped an adult Pelé into today's game, he'd probably be lost at first because of the pace and the tactical sophistication, but he would probably adapt. He'd certainly rise to the top if you dropped him into today's youth systems at 5 years old; he had talent. In reverse, if you dropped an adult Messi into Pelé's time, he'd have to adapt to leather balls and rough pitches. If you dropped him into Maradona's time, he's have to adapt to getting hacked without sanction. It would probably be an easier adjustment than the other direction, but it would still be an adjustment. This is true in any sport. In tennis, how do you compare Rod Laver to Federer-Nadal-Djokovic when he played with wood rackets and had the amateur/pro divide? In ice hockey, how do you compare Gordie Howe to Wayne Gretzky when Gordie started with awful ice surfaces (no Zamboni yet) and flat stick blades? Another factor in the debate is: do you compare a whole career, or do you compare peak to peak? Messi and Pelé are both ahead of Maradona if you go by the whole career because they lasted longer and didn't self destruct. Maradona is in the debate because his peak is on a level with theirs. Again, other sports have parallels. In golf, Jack Nicklaus did it for longer than Tiger Woods and racked up more titles, but Woods' peak was at least the same level or arguably higher. How do you compare players who played different positions? Zatman already brought up Maldini. Even more extreme, how do you compare a goalkeeper like, say, Lev Yashin? Again, parallels in other sports: in ice hockey, how do you compare Bobby Orr to Gretzky or Howe when he was a defenseman? In basketball, how do you compare Wilt Chamberlain to Michael Jordan or LeBron James when he was a center? Even more subjective things come into play. How many people prefer Messi over Ronaldo simply because Ronaldo comes across as arrogant? In the end, you can't compare on any objective basis. That's why I disagree vehemently when people say things like, "Messi is the GOAT, the debate is over." No, the debate isn't over and never will be. All that changed yesterday is that the last excuse for excluding Messi from the debate is gone. He's in the debate without question, as Maradona and Pelé always will be. It's all subjective. And I vote 1. Pelé 2. Messi 3. Maradona. And here, endeth the lesson. Perfect ps. Maradona 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 2 hours ago, Zhan_Zhuang said: 22 goals in 36 games! How would Messi do playing in Serie A with a midtable team? Messi benefited from playing with one of the best teams in the world. also the brutality Maradona felt on the football pitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewiek2 Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 Everyone knows Emi is the GOAT 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WakefieldVillan Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 2 hours ago, TomC said: These debates are always fun and never conclusive. I agree that the bias towards today's players will always be there. We've all seen Maradona's and Pelé's highlights, but how many actually saw them throughout their careers? You'd have to be over 80 for Pelé and over 50 for Maradona. Hardly anyone alive saw Di Stefano. It's hard for most people to believe that anyone is better than what they saw week-in, week-out for years. And we all have attachments to our boyhood heroes. For Villa, the older folks around here are going to be attached to Sid Cowans or Dennis Mortimer; people a little younger are going to say Paul McGrath; the really young (if they can get over their anger) will say Jack Grealish. Only a history nerd like me is going to make the case for Billy Walker or Pongo Waring. It's also hard to compare players from different eras because things are so different. But if you're the greatest in your era, you'd probably be the (co-)greatest in any era. If you dropped an adult Pelé into today's game, he'd probably be lost at first because of the pace and the tactical sophistication, but he would probably adapt. He'd certainly rise to the top if you dropped him into today's youth systems at 5 years old; he had talent. In reverse, if you dropped an adult Messi into Pelé's time, he'd have to adapt to leather balls and rough pitches. If you dropped him into Maradona's time, he's have to adapt to getting hacked without sanction. It would probably be an easier adjustment than the other direction, but it would still be an adjustment. This is true in any sport. In tennis, how do you compare Rod Laver to Federer-Nadal-Djokovic when he played with wood rackets and had the amateur/pro divide? In ice hockey, how do you compare Gordie Howe to Wayne Gretzky when Gordie started with awful ice surfaces (no Zamboni yet) and flat stick blades? Another factor in the debate is: do you compare a whole career, or do you compare peak to peak? Messi and Pelé are both ahead of Maradona if you go by the whole career because they lasted longer and didn't self destruct. Maradona is in the debate because his peak is on a level with theirs. Again, other sports have parallels. In golf, Jack Nicklaus did it for longer than Tiger Woods and racked up more titles, but Woods' peak was at least the same level or arguably higher. How do you compare players who played different positions? Zatman already brought up Maldini. Even more extreme, how do you compare a goalkeeper like, say, Lev Yashin? Again, parallels in other sports: in ice hockey, how do you compare Bobby Orr to Gretzky or Howe when he was a defenseman? In basketball, how do you compare Wilt Chamberlain to Michael Jordan or LeBron James when he was a center? Even more subjective things come into play. How many people prefer Messi over Ronaldo simply because Ronaldo comes across as arrogant? In the end, you can't compare on any objective basis. That's why I disagree vehemently when people say things like, "Messi is the GOAT, the debate is over." No, the debate isn't over and never will be. All that changed yesterday is that the last excuse for excluding Messi from the debate is gone. He's in the debate without question, as Maradona and Pelé always will be. It's all subjective. And I vote 1. Pelé 2. Messi 3. Maradona. Summed up perfectly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xela Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 They are the goats of their own era. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lupinthe5th Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 ### # Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 I don't like Maradona but nobody can deny he scored the greatest individual goal ever in the world cup. In the 86 world cup.i think he edged it over what Messi did in this world cup. It was just a one man show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 On 14/12/2022 at 23:03, momo said: Messi barely runs now. Don't understand the plaudits. Argentina has a good collective now. Maradona won Argentina the 1986 world cup. That team wouldn't have achieved anything without Maradona. Maradona is the real GOAT. Yep, went to a poor Napoli side and turned them into Champions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 Anyway, the answer is R9. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will87 Posted December 20, 2022 Share Posted December 20, 2022 13 hours ago, Zatman said: People can laugh but nobody can give me a reason Messi is better than Maldini. You're welcome to put a defender as your goat I guess, but this is just an absurd thing to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
messi11 Posted December 20, 2022 Author Share Posted December 20, 2022 Even if 7 ballon d'or titles and world cup wasn't enough, overtaking the World Record Egg as the most liked Instagram post of all time should convince you that Messi is the greatest ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beastmix Posted December 20, 2022 Share Posted December 20, 2022 12 hours ago, Xela said: They are the goats of their own era. That's an oxymoron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beastmix Posted December 20, 2022 Share Posted December 20, 2022 10 hours ago, jim said: Anyway, the answer is R9. The greatest pure striker of all time, no question. The guy was something else. Ran the show in the 2002 World Cup. Had a far better supporting cast than Maradona had in '86, but it was still all about R9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumstopdogs Posted December 20, 2022 Share Posted December 20, 2022 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
messi11 Posted December 20, 2022 Author Share Posted December 20, 2022 4 minutes ago, Brumstopdogs said: Best ever for me. The Egg was a good player too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumstopdogs Posted December 20, 2022 Share Posted December 20, 2022 16 minutes ago, messi11 said: Best ever for me. The Egg was a good player too Was a cracking player, but was a bit shell-fish at times, Some his performances were a bit oeuf... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
messi11 Posted December 20, 2022 Author Share Posted December 20, 2022 27 minutes ago, Brumstopdogs said: Was a cracking player, but was a bit shell-fish at times, Some his performances were a bit oeuf... eggs-actly. People said his team wasn't all cracked up to be, but they was hard to beat. More of a poacher than out out playmaker. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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