Steven Gerrard

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

Have we managed to find a reason why he's even shitter than he was yesterday yet?

[VillaChris]

2 minutes ago, andycv said:

I'd like to know the loads of managers who would be able to get more out of the squad please?  

Well Poch is out of a job currently and he took Spurs from 6th/7th to qualifying for CL every year and deep in many cup tournaments playing a very exciting brand of football.

Eddie Howe did an excellent job at Newcastle last year especially as some of the January signings hit the ground running. He will probably be sacked at some point in next two years so his name could easily figure on our radar post Gerrard if he gets them into europa.

Nuno would get us finishing higher up the league although can understand reservations about brand of football.

Rodgers took over Leicester when they were in similar position to us, 12th/13th in league. 5th, 5th, Fa cup win and even their disappointing last season was 8th and europa SF.

Moyes done outstanding job at West Ham given where they were when he took over in Jan 2020.

Add in endless managers in Germany/France/Spain as I'm convinced this squad is ideal for continental manager to come in and work with.

Of course Gerrard's been here six months  but you have to look at the facts sometimes. He came in when we were 16th, we finished a grand total of two places higher and that was after being in a very promising position mid March. Can't even say it was due to half the squad thinking they'd get sold as we haven't made that many changes to what we finished last season with. Lack of wins in final three months, mediocre football and that was with Digne, Coutinho and Chambers added mid season.

Let's not make out our squad is barely better then the promoted teams, it should be top half but I'm just not convinced under this manager we're going to get there. We'll see.

[DCJonah]

21 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Smith had to go regardless. He looked like he was out of ideas on how to stop the bad form and the players didn’t seem happy at all.  This poor form had also gone on for a calendar year 

Whether Gerrard turns out to the the right appointment or not is yet to be know but either way Smiths time was done in my opinion.

We finished 14th last year and if Gerrard doesn't work out I can only assume we will finish the same or lower this year. 

I see no reason why Smith couldn't have done that or better with more time. Especially when you consider he had to work with essentially 3 different squads in just over 3 years and didn't get the chance to actually use the players properly who were signed to replace Grealish. 

I'm 100% behind Gerrard but I want to see that it was worth throwing away what we'd built with Deano.

[Vive_La_Villa]

2 minutes ago, VillaChris said:

Big call for the season considering West Ham are finishing 6th or 7th these days (mainly due to Rice influence imo).

Yet poster aboves thinks many managers can't do better than Gerrard's 14th.

That's the crux really. There's no way we're massively inflating the wage bill again and hiking up season and matchday prices just to continually finish 11-14th anyway.

Gerrard and Smiths 14th. 

[Tomaszk]

50 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

I agree with a lot of this and it was my attitude under the last guy. 

For some reason there's fans way more prepared to give Gerrard a lot of time and patience.  

I would also add that I think we had something special and unique in modern football with Deano. So if We're just going to be a bottom half team for a few years I'd have rather given him more time. 

Yep. Huge shame. The Deano doubters have become Gerrard's biggest fans. That's OK, good they now support the manager.

Good Percy article on the season ahead and it's the usual Gerrard high standards type stuff. I'm glad he's got high standards, they're needed.

I think the players will be put under the cosh if they don't produce performances. I fear for him if he starts saying it in public. It's quite rare blaming players precedes success.

Article mentions top half minimum, and with the price and wages of the signings we're making it's absolutely is.

I'd like some performances before I can get too optimistic. Yes I'd like six points from six, but I will be much more positive about the season if we rip Bournemouth and Everton a new one and only come away with two points. We didn't look good under Gerrard very often. Nearly all our goals were individual brilliance, and I think his setup is fundamentally wrong much of the time.

Really excited about the season. You know Gerrard will be expecting two wins to kick us off.

Edited August 4, 2022 by Tomaszk

[TRO]

48 minutes ago, Dale said:

Just like Keane? Lambert? Bruce? 

Progress isn't an inevitability for coaches. Depends on how open they are to change, and learning from their mistakes. 

do you want to bet against him?

[DCJonah]

14 minutes ago, TRO said:

Ask the CEO, write to him and ask him?

I back his judgement.

Good to know. 

But you've missed the point. I know why. Because they think Gerrard can and will do better. 

In my post I said if Gerrard didn't work out. And that was in response to someone who said even if Gerrard doesn't work out it was right to sack Smith. 

Hope that clears it up. 

[Tomaszk]

1 minute ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

What is the " 3 or 4 " you would pick, are more essential to a " team " than what we've got?

For example if West Ham had our forward line, and you take out Rice, Soucek etc, are they the same side?

The arguments people make for having " better players " on paper don't always translate into the pitch.

I can guarantee most teams in the League could find an 11 they would take from Man U last season.

We've seen teams of Galacticos be shite.

It's not about the names you have on paper, it's about the balance of the overall team and how they are utilised.

Well...that's the gaffer's job.

He's been allowed to change the transfer policy and spend a fortune on wages and fees.

No worries if it leads to results and performances.

 

[lexicon]

6 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

What if the " 3 or 4 " you would pick, are more essential to a " team " than what we've got?

For example if West Ham had our forward line, and you take out Rice, Soucek etc, are they the same side?

The arguments people make for having " better players " on paper don't always translate into the pitch.

I can guarantee most teams in the League could find an 11 they would take from Man U last season.

We've seen teams of Galacticos be shite.

It's not about the names you have on paper, it's about the balance of the overall team and how they are utilised.

It's like when I speak to my Aunt or Mom after Argentinia have lost a match and they go on to say Messi is shite because Argentina lost. Lol

Having a strong spine is easier to win games with than having all the best luxury players in the world without one.

I've got to wonder if people are in denial about West Ham just being a good side because they aren't " fashionable " ?

 

The players are essentially the manager's tools to work with. The strength of those tools will create a baseline expectation of what can be done with them - and this squad is definitely top half material at the very least. For me, as I've said many times, 8th is definitely achievable by a decent manager, not even a great one. Great managers will make teams that are more than the sum of their parts, others will fail and there could be many different reasons why. Real Madrid, for example, is a high pressure atmosphere with entitled fans and teams that are seemingly put together on reputation and extravagance rather than careful selection - of course they will be shite at times. 

Your talk of balance and how a team is utilised is correct but that's the manager's job. Nobody is saying that West Ham aren't a good side but it's because of those things you mentioned that we're even talking about them - not due to the strength of their side individually and that's kinda the point. Moyes is achieving more than Gerrard with less - he's far more experienced and has proven himself time and again in this league. 

Gerrard has a lot to do, JV, and hasn't proved himself in this league at all yet. That's not to say he won't or he shouldn't be supported, obviously, but the people who are on the fence are there for good reason. 

[lexicon]

27 minutes ago, TRO said:

Ask the CEO, write to him and ask him?

I back his judgement.

The question I'd want to ask would be whether Gerrard would have been on our radar had it not been for his relationship with Purslow. I think we'd have looked at him, sure, but he would've been a lot further down the list. 

[Keyblade]

4 hours ago, DCJonah said:

We finished 14th last year and if Gerrard doesn't work out I can only assume we will finish the same or lower this year. 

I see no reason why Smith couldn't have done that or better with more time. Especially when you consider he had to work with essentially 3 different squads in just over 3 years and didn't get the chance to actually use the players properly who were signed to replace Grealish. 

I'm 100% behind Gerrard but I want to see that it was worth throwing away what we'd built with Deano.

I think Deano would have hit his ceiling and replaced soon anyway. If Gerrard doesn't work out, it's fine, it'll only be a minor setback. As great a job as he did for us, I'm sure there are plenty of guys out there who could continue that and take us to the next level. Hopefully we got it right on the first try, and Gerrard is that guy.

[Vive_La_Villa]

3 hours ago, lexicon said:

The question I'd want to ask would be whether Gerrard would have been on our radar had it not been for his relationship with Purslow. I think we'd have looked at him, sure, but he would've been a lot further down the list. 

Maybe but doesn’t that mean Purslow is putting his next on the line even more so if Gerrard is the man he has vouched for?

[Vive_La_Villa]

4 hours ago, Tomaszk said:

Yep. Huge shame. The Deano doubters have become Gerrard's biggest fans. That's OK, good they now support the manager.

I’ve noticed this and to be honest it doesn’t sit well with me either. I supported Smith to the end and did F you’s to some of our own fans after the Everton 3-0 win.  Now I feel like I’ll be doing the same with Gerrard but with a whole new set of fans.

Discuss, criticise, even dislike is fine. But when you stop supporting it ain’t great. 

[AvonVillain]

6 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

I think Deano would have hit his ceiling and replaced soon anyway.

I just don't know how anyone can make that kind of claim, other than to say your own gut feeling, which of course is not very scientific and a fairly meaningless guess. Take Ron Saunders as an example of a good, but unspectacular (my deepest apologies, Ron) manager before and after his time at Villa. History, and his legacy, was made during his spell at Villa. I wonder what claims you could've made of his potential 'ceiling' as manager during his spells of management before Villa? And then afterwards, once this 'ceiling' was discovered, why he couldn't he create or find the same magic formula again?

There's so much good fortune and being in the right place at the right time about management it's absolutely impossible to say what Dean Smith could've done here if given the time and backing. We'll never know, sadly. I'm not personally pulling you up on anything, Keyblade, I think I'm just tired of this overly familiar expression.

Up next on this list: 'bang average'.

[Zatman]

20 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I’ve noticed this and to be honest it doesn’t sit well with me either. I supported Smith to the end and did F you’s to some of our own fans after the Everton 3-0 win.  Now I feel like I’ll be doing the same with Gerrard but with a whole new set of fans.

Discuss, criticise, even dislike is fine. But when you stop supporting it ain’t great. 

I will always back the players even if no faith of the management and have praised him the rare times he got his tic tacs right not just in the victories

[Keyblade]

11 minutes ago, AvonVillain said:

I just don't know how anyone can make that kind of claim, other than to say your own gut feeling, which of course is not very scientific and a fairly meaningless guess. Take Ron Saunders as an example of a good, but unspectacular (my deepest apologies, Ron) manager before and after his time at Villa. History, and his legacy, was made during his spell at Villa. I wonder what claims you could've made of his potential 'ceiling' as manager during his spells of management before Villa? And then afterwards, once this 'ceiling' was discovered, why he couldn't he create or find the same magic formula again?

There's so much good fortune and being in the right place at the right time about management it's absolutely impossible to say what Dean Smith could've done here if given the time and backing. We'll never know, sadly. I'm not personally pulling you up on anything, Keyblade, I think I'm just tired of this overly familiar expression.

Up next on this list: 'bang average'.

I'm only speculating based on gut feeling. While he was doing a great job for us, it's not like we were massively punching above our weight. He didn't develop into a world class manager in his 3 years with us or anything. While I'd love to have kept him on until he reached this hypothetical ceiling, not doing so isn't some terrible loss imo.

I get the feeling Purslow and co were sounding out a replacement for some time as well, so they probably also thought the time was coming up. He could have been the guy to lead us to the promised land, but by the time he got sacked (which was hard to argue against), you'd have to have some intense faith in the guy to still believe so.

[AvonVillain]

5 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

He could have been the guy to lead us to the promised land, but by the time he got sacked (which was hard to argue against), you'd have to have some intense faith in the guy to still believe so.

It's a well-worn point of course, but wasn't Alex Ferguson on his third season of dross before turning United into United? Also, doesn't the data show that changing managers regularly doesn't improve fortunes over the long term?

I wouldn't call it intense faith personally, and again my own gut feeling is largely meaningless, but I honestly felt DS, given the financial backing we were inevitably going to give any new manager, would absolutely have taken us top 6, and then, who knows... I've never known a more pointless managerial change.

Worth stating again; SG has my full backing, but I absolutely don't believe he is in anyway a better manager than Dean Smith.

[TRO]

4 hours ago, lexicon said:

The question I'd want to ask would be whether Gerrard would have been on our radar had it not been for his relationship with Purslow. I think we'd have looked at him, sure, but he would've been a lot further down the list. 

I think, if we think bosses don't look at people, they think they can trust, or work with.....we are fooling ourselves.

SG and CP clearly have a respecting relationship, and that has to be healthy......all singing off the same hymn sheets and all that.

If we are saying, its only based on that, him getting the job.....we are fooling ourselves again.

CP has worked close up with him at Liverpool, he see's things in him, he feels will be important, going forward, is that not easy to comprehend.

I guess, CP liked DS too, but didn't see some of the  things he wanted to see.....and I Would get that, some might not.

FWIW....I am not sure that Dean is an inferior coach to SG right now......but I do think SG has attributes, that Dean hasn't got.

What we all hope for is that, all this manifests itself in to positive results.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

5 hours ago, lexicon said:

The question I'd want to ask would be whether Gerrard would have been on our radar had it not been for his relationship with Purslow. I think we'd have looked at him, sure, but he would've been a lot further down the list. 

It's a good and valid question.

However in the same breath we could ask, would we have had a chance in hell of getting Coutinho, Carlos, or Kamara if it wasn't for SG?

Would we have gotten Ollie or Buendia without Smith?

McGinn without Bruce?

There are both positives and negatives to having " relationships ".

For the most part it's a good thing having a good relationship with people you're employing and/trusting with your " life "

People getting a " boost " due to knowing someone has been a thing from the beginning of time and will always be a thing.

I'm sure Purslow has relationships with other Managers he would never consider bringing here also.

We need to give the bloke the benefit of the doubt in a sense as he is no fool.

Doesn't mean he won't get some things wrong, but I can't foresee him intentionally doing anything to the detriment of Aston Villa and to himself as a byproduct.

Mourinho for example has signed Matic something like 3 times aint he? Would be easy for someone to say there are much better CM's he could sign, and is only signing Matic as he's his mate etc, but it's obs because he both trusts him AND feels he can do the job.

[TRO]

strange, but interesting sequence during our 2 mini runs of losing 5 games on the bounce, under Dean and Steve, last season.

4 teams were the same.

• West Ham
• Spurs 
• Arsenal 
• Wolves

spooky hey.