Increasing Club Revenue

[OutByEaster?]

Hadn't realised that Everton had ended up pulling out of their deal with Sportpesa (who are another TGP brand) early, and I hadn't been aware of the Yabo collapse and disappearance as a sponsor of Man Utd and AC Milan.

I wonder what odds you'd get on our new 3 year sponsorship deal not lasting 3 years?

 

[sidcow]

Did anyone use the tap and go food thing? 

I just don't understand how it works. Is only 1 person at a time allowed to walk through it? 

[HanoiVillan]

On 02/02/2023 at 18:05, Keyblade said:

Well yes, exactly. I don't see how this particular one is suddenly the straw that broke the camel's back. I don't remember this much opposition to W88, a similarly conspicuous organization just a couple of years ago for example.

Edit: To be clear, I'm against these shadowy firms and their gambling products being in football, but it's been the state of affairs for 2 decades now unfortunately.

Well that's true, but since we were sponsored by W88 what has happened is that a] a lot of journalists have looked into these white label gambling companies and reported about their legally dubious nature, b] Alvin Chau, the 'junket king' who either set up or bought the office in the Isle of Man that is the home registration of all these brands, has been arrested and charged with fraud, money laundering and racketeering, and c] there is better understanding both that these adverts/sponsorships are designed to encourage Chinese citizens to break Chinese laws and also that if and when they do so and are caught, they can face severe legal penalties for doing so. They can also get into big trouble with triads if they get into gambling debt in a country in which gambling in illegal, and a report was presented to the Philippine Senate last year which detailed how tens of thousands of Chinese citizens have gone to work for offshore gambling operators (just like the ones we're being sponsored by) who set up in the Philippines, driving a subsequent surge in sex-trafficking and prostitution. 

We know more now, so we shouldn't use how we reacted 3 years ago as a baseline. When the facts change, or come to light, we should change our minds. 

[Keyblade]

21 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

Well that's true, but since we were sponsored by W88 what has happened is that a] a lot of journalists have looked into these white label gambling companies and reported about their legally dubious nature, b] Alvin Chau, the 'junket king' who either set up or bought the office in the Isle of Man that is the home registration of all these brands, has been arrested and charged with fraud, money laundering and racketeering, and c] there is better understanding both that these adverts/sponsorships are designed to encourage Chinese citizens to break Chinese laws and also that if and when they do so and are caught, they can face severe legal penalties for doing so. They can also get into big trouble with triads if they get into gambling debt in a country in which gambling in illegal, and a report was presented to the Philippine Senate last year which detailed how tens of thousands of Chinese citizens have gone to work for offshore gambling operators (just like the ones we're being sponsored by) who set up in the Philippines, driving a subsequent surge in sex-trafficking and prostitution. 

We know more now, so we shouldn't use how we reacted 3 years ago as a baseline. When the facts change, or come to light, we should change our minds. 

Right. I knew I was missing something.

[HanoiVillan]

On 03/02/2023 at 13:46, blandy said:

I'm confident that if and when they announce new sponsorship they'll do exactly that.

I'll be surprised if they give anything more than platitudes ('yes, we've done due diligence'). This will be scarcely believable. An extract from an article by Nick Harris on this from January (we are one of the '10 Premier League clubs in question'):

(You can see the full article here, via the author's Twitter feed: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FnCBI05X0AAJl2p?format=jpg&name=4096x4096 - it's also at https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-11661895/MPs-want-investigation-links-jailed-Chinese-billionaire-clubs-betting-partners.html)

How anyone can claim with a straight face to have done 'due diligence' on a company whose HQ can't be located and that doesn't appear to have any locatable or existing officials I don't know. Here is what Villa's 'due diligence' of BK8 almost certainly looks like:

Question #1: Does this company have a licence to operate in the UK (ie, are we doing anything illegal)?

Answer #1: Yes, it does (the white label provider from the Isle of Man that we've dealt with before). 

Question #2: Do they have lots of money to give us?

Answer #2: Yes.

The end. 

I'm sure Purslow will dress that up a bit for the FCG but there's nothing more going on here, we're looking for gold but trying not to look under any rocks while we do it. 

[blandy]

10 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

I'll be surprised if they give anything more than platitudes ('yes, we've done due diligence'). This will be scarcely believable.

Totally. I mean the way they put up the price of tickets, the nature of the endless quest to just get more money from every conceivable source and avenue rather suggests that considerations around provenance and morality are some way down the pecking order for football clubs. How do you ethically compete with financial doping at the likes of City?

Ideally you have more scruples and stay clean, but the quicker path is to take a more unsavoury route and hope you don’t get your “brand” tarnished on the way.

[CVByrne]

Football needs to be cleaned up. If we just stopped any commercial revenue from sponsorship deals to be included in anything related to FFP we would make the league more competitive and stop the largest of the dodgy items. Or put a cap on the amount that can be included to something like the average of the top 5 clubs this season and leave that cap in place for good. Then once the average rises for clubs over time then everyone will have the same use of the commercial deals in their playing squad.

We should only include revenue from media for showing games, ticket sales, prize money etc. We need the PL to start tackling this in a serious way. We want to make it more competitive and close these loopholes

[The_Steve]

23 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

I wonder what odds you'd get on our new 3 year sponsorship deal not lasting 3 years?

That’s another concern. Many white-label gambling firms have a short business life because of the dubious nature of their business, not in spite of it. 
 

What happens 18 months in and they vanish? What will the club do? Go sponsor-less? How do you justify going with them in the first place? It would be a terrible scenario for the club. It would also deter other legitimate sponsors because bad PR is still PR. It’s a blemish on our name regardless. 

[KevinRichardsonsMoustache]

1 hour ago, CVByrne said:

Football needs to be cleaned up. If we just stopped any commercial revenue from sponsorship deals to be included in anything related to FFP we would make the league more competitive and stop the largest of the dodgy items. Or put a cap on the amount that can be included to something like the average of the top 5 clubs this season and leave that cap in place for good. Then once the average rises for clubs over time then everyone will have the same use of the commercial deals in their playing squad.

We should only include revenue from media for showing games, ticket sales, prize money etc. We need the PL to start tackling this in a serious way. We want to make it more competitive and close these loopholes

Superb post. Complexity in regulations favours the incumbents, the wealthy. Streamlining the rules in any way is imperfect, but it would close loopholes and level the field, to some extent, ready for disruption.

[blunther]

14 hours ago, sidcow said:

Did anyone use the tap and go food thing? 

I just don't understand how it works. Is only 1 person at a time allowed to walk through it? 

I used it. Not one person at a time, there were quite a few people in there. Scanned my card (seems to cost a pound to enter, I was expecting that to get refunded but it hasn't yet..), piked up two pints, walked out. Quickest I've ever got a pint.

And it only charged me for one... which is why I haven't complained about the quid entry fee yet!

[bobzy]

On 03/02/2023 at 23:01, gwi1890 said:

exactly and what you’ve mentioned here is way more accessible , a friend of mine got addicted  to fifa ultimate team, up all night playing developed severe rsi and has been off work for 2 years can’t drive and struggles with daily task involved the use of his hand and arms, also spent 13k on fifa points.

Do you know what this is?

 

That's right, it's gambling.  And look at the ruin it's caused your friend.

 

I **** hate flippant posts like the one by @JAMAICAN-VILLAN.  If you have no clue about the devastation something can cause, just leave the subject alone.  Don't bang on about balti pies you plum.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

4 hours ago, bobzy said:

Do you know what this is?

 

That's right, it's gambling.  And look at the ruin it's caused your friend.

 

I **** hate flippant posts like the one by @JAMAICAN-VILLAN.  If you have no clue about the devastation something can cause, just leave the subject alone.  Don't bang on about balti pies you plum.

It doesn't take " flippancy " or expert knowledge to make common sense comparisons.

Man gtfoh... if you have personally been affected, or know people who have, so it hits close to home, then just say that... ( alchohol , drug abuse etc. hit close to home for me )

If i return with the name calling and nastiness i'll be banned, because I can guarantee it's one of my specialisations.

Selectively extracting " Balti Pies " from a post where the nuance or direction is easily extracted from an objective perspective is cretin like behaviour.

I'm sorry if you, or someone you know, can't control themselves from spunking their life savings on betting.

I maintain... that there are many things much worse than " gambling " which surround and are involved in the game, which get nowhere near the same stigma. When in the grand scheme of things they are actually much worse, some of which aren't necessarily by "choice " either.

It is one of MANY things which can cause " devastation " . 

Just because you don't agree with the comparisons don't make them any less valid.

Edited February 8, 2023 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[bobzy]

10 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

It doesn't take " flippancy " or expert knowledge to make common sense comparisons.

Man gtfoh... if you have personally been affected, or know people who have, so it hits close to home, then just say that...

If i return with the name calling and nastiness i'll be banned, because I can guarantee it's one of my specialisations.

Selectively extracting " Balti Pies " from a post where the nuance or direction is easily extracted from an objective perspective is cretin like behaviour.

I'm sorry if you, or someone you know, can't control themselves from spunking their life savings on betting.

I maintain... that there are many things much worse than " gambling " which surround and are involved in the game, which get nowhere near the same stigma. When in the grand scheme of things they are actually much worse, some of which aren't necessarily by "choice " either.

It is one of MANY things which can cause " devastation " . 

Just because you don't agree with the comparisons don't make them any less valid.

I think I've already been through this with you, possibly even in this thread, where you said you didn't understand gambling addiction.  I'd explained it, you'd thanked the post... and then continue to post about "pizza is harmful".

People with gambling problems are more likely to have suicidal thoughts, self harm or commit suicide than the rest of the population.  That includes your alcoholics, smokers, and those unfortunate enough to be addicted to balti pies.

The bit in bold says it all really.  You haven't got a clue.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

1 minute ago, bobzy said:

I think I've already been through this with you, possibly even in this thread, where you said you didn't understand gambling addiction.  I'd explained it, you'd thanked the post... and then continue to post about "pizza is harmful".

People with gambling problems are more likely to have suicidal thoughts, self harm or commit suicide than the rest of the population.  That includes your alcoholics, smokers, and those unfortunate enough to be addicted to balti pies.

The bit in bold says it all really.  You haven't got a clue.

Me " Liking/ Thanking " your post probably means I understand/appreciate your perspective/opinion... It doesn't mean I devalue mine or believe it any less.

Anyway.. this will go nowhere constructive so....

[bobzy]

Just now, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Me " Liking/ Thanking " your post probably means I understand/appreciate your perspective/opinion... It doesn't mean I devalue mine or believe it any less.

Anyway.. this will go nowhere constructive so....

It won't.  Go do some research to better understand the issue.  There was a cracking post somewhere on this forum (off topic, 'addiction' thread I think) about a VTer who struggled with it.

And football glorifies it.  It doesn't glorify drinking or smoking or porn or gaming or pizza eating or balti pie eating or whatever other nonsense example you want to give.  Largely, it can't advertise these things (and rightly so).  Gambling?  Pride place.  The biggest thing in football.  Adverts every day about it, odds given by SkyBet during every match.  They even discuss odds during promotion and relegation battles.  Most sponsorship deals are gambling companies.

It is absolutely everywhere.  And as I've said before, you're not "just" ruining your life in terms of health (like alcoholism or smoking et al), you're ruining the financial stability of your family.

[abdomlahor]

1 hour ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

It doesn't take " flippancy " or expert knowledge to make common sense comparisons.

Man gtfoh... if you have personally been affected, or know people who have, so it hits close to home, then just say that... ( alchohol , drug abuse etc. hit close to home for me )

If i return with the name calling and nastiness i'll be banned, because I can guarantee it's one of my specialisations.

Selectively extracting " Balti Pies " from a post where the nuance or direction is easily extracted from an objective perspective is cretin like behaviour.

I'm sorry if you, or someone you know, can't control themselves from spunking their life savings on betting.

I maintain... that there are many things much worse than " gambling " which surround and are involved in the game, which get nowhere near the same stigma. When in the grand scheme of things they are actually much worse, some of which aren't necessarily by "choice " either.

It is one of MANY things which can cause " devastation " . 

Just because you don't agree with the comparisons don't make them any less valid.

i don't really see why you feel the need to defend a shady gambling company from criticism. all the whataboutisms add nothing to the conversation because none of the vices you listed are making regular appearances on the front of football shirts. we should not be in the business of exposing a mass audience which includes vulnerable, easily influenced and underage people to a hobby that has the potential to cause financial ruin. i don't see how that's in question really.

i don't really care if we have an official gambling partner, ale partner, or whatever. so long as it's discreet and not plastered all over our branding like we're an easy mark.

 

[Stevo985]

1 hour ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

can't control themselves from spunking their life savings on betting.

 

You're really not helping yourself with posts like this

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

23 minutes ago, bobzy said:

.  And as I've said before, you're not "just" ruining your life in terms of health (like alcoholism or smoking et al), you're ruining the financial stability of your family.

Surely you can see how the others have the same effect... plus potential death/s right?

[bobzy]

3 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Surely you can see how the others have the same effect... plus potential death/s right?

They can, but you'd be hard pressed to drink £2k worth of alcohol in even a month or smoke £2k worth of cigarettes in.... well, one hell of a long time.

Problem gamblers will lose that sort of amount in a day.  Plus the heightened suicide risk after losses.  Yet do we limit advertising it like we do with alcohol and smoking?  No, no.  We do the opposite - we actively promote it.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

17 minutes ago, abdomlahor said:

i don't really see why you feel the need to defend a shady gambling company from criticism.

 

What interest or reason would I have to defend any sort of " shady " gambling company.

I'm not " defending " any particular company... i'm merely trying to figure out why, what seems to me, to be a high level of hypocrisy and bizarre focus on one particular industry when in my view there are much worse things promoted in and around the game. Which don't seem to receive the same level of moral signaling etc. Even if they have equal or even more devastating effects on people.

I personally don't care... I just know that people are very selective with their virtue.

The only valid arguments I've seen so far, are about some of these companies being shell companies for more sinister dealings and money laundering etc. ( If that is the case with this particular company then that's another thing altogether)

The " addiction " angles of it doesn't outdo any of the other much worse vices promoted around the game IMO... sorry.

There is no parallel reality where anyone can convince me that gambling is worse on a whole than alcohol , as an example. lol

Edited February 8, 2023 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN