Team shape, tactics and personnel

[IrishVilla10]

On 03/06/2023 at 23:39, catanzaro said:

I’m wondering whether we’ll play a 3241 formation next year. If we get Diego fit enough..

I’ve just come to post this, with the talk of signing Torres I wonder if it’s something we’ll work at. Something I’ve noticed is Brighton get a lot of media coverage about how they play out from the press and we seem to get zero, with all our focus leaning towards how risky our high line is. Our game against Liverpool was exactly how Brighton play but it never seems to get mentioned. This new formation that guardiola introduced  then arteta and klopp later in the season moved to seems to be the next big thing. 3 centre backs and Luiz and kamara as the two could be solid for us. 

Edited June 7, 2023 by IrishVilla10

[thabucks]

Brilliant analysis of Emery’s tactics… 

https://totalfootballanalysis.com/tactical-theory/tactical-theory-the-box-midfield-shape-tactical-analysis-tactics
 

Quote

Amidst the diverse approaches employed by these managers, a common objective unites them: how they structure the box midfield with different dynamic movements. So, this tactical analysisaims to delve into the box midfield mechanisms, examining tactics via various examples from Aston Villa and Liverpool.

Sorry mods but the article won’t let you copy any of the text …  

Edited June 8, 2023 by blandy
Extract added

[MaVilla]

before anyone says "Emery plays 442", yes he has with us and at times previously, but he has also said his preferred formations are 4141 or 433, if he has the right players! (im going to assume we get the right players for this, this summer)

I would love to see something like this.

Buy a top class right winger/right inside forward, then McGinn, Ramsey and Buendia can battle it out for that LM/LW/L-inside midfielder role.

 

[DCJonah]

That midfield looks top 4 quality. 

[Kiwivillan]

5 hours ago, MaVilla said:

before anyone says "Emery plays 442", yes he has with us and at times previously, but he has also said his preferred formations are 4141 or 433, if he has the right players! (im going to assume we get the right players for this, this summer)

I would love to see something like this.

Buy a top class right winger/right inside forward, then McGinn, Ramsey and Buendia can battle it out for that LM/LW/L-inside midfielder role.

 

Tielemans hasn't won a starting spot ahead of Mcginn Ramsey. Most likely the opposite

Konsa not in 11 is absurd after the season he had.

Edited June 11, 2023 by Kiwivillan

[Keyblade]

My takeaway from that is that we really need to nail our RW signing this summer to be serious contenders for EL/CL spots. The rest of that side looks quality, but without that RWer, we'll need to revert to the 4-4-2.

[CVByrne]

I think next key position is that Second Striker / Wide Forward type player. 

I think someone who plays the same role as Buendia in that they are part of the front two but drop deep to form the box with Ramsey coming from left. We then need the winger in RM to attack the space created by the second striker / 10 dropping deep. Watkins needs to do what he does and stand between the CBs waiting for the through balls. 

Buendia has a lot to offer still be we need competition for that role. So this player who can function in different roles. 

I see the midfield as follows

JJ/Coutinho, Luiz/Tielemans, Kamara/Dendonker, McGinn/Bailey

Forward line as Watkins/Archer, Buendia/NEW

 

[ZL-]

I have a dream...

Would be our primary system replicating our general structure from last year below:

 

The alternative with the addition of Tielemans allows us is to push him and Luiz as free 8s to help us break down low blocks, which I expect we will be facing a lot more of next season.

 

You can swap Goncalves for any other second striker/AM we have been linked to such as Ferran Torres/Deulofeu and previously Asensio

Similarly Nico Williams could be swapped for a Chukwueze or Lee Kang-In.

Finally Pau Torres could be swapped for an actual RB instead of Konsa moving across, haven't seen many RB legitimately linked but a Fresneda/AWB would fit the bill here.

 

The above, whilst requiring pulling off some pretty massive transfers would fit into the greater plan Unai is building and put our squad composition firmly in a place for very strong league performance and conference chances.

 

 

[Delphinho123]

16 hours ago, Kiwivillan said:

Tielemans hasn't won a starting spot ahead of Mcginn Ramsey. Most likely the opposite

Konsa not in 11 is absurd after the season he had.

Uh oh. I’m agreeing with you now!

McGinn and Ramsey are starting next season ahead of Tielemans and it’ll have to be the latter that forces his way into the side. McGinn and Ramsey were in very good form towards the back end of the season. 

The Carlos thing is an interesting one. People are desperate to include him because of the transfer fee and his profile but there is absolutely no way I’d be splitting up Konsa and Mings. They’ve been excellent under Emery and there aren’t many centre half pairings I’d have over them in the PL. 

[Monkeypuzzle]

With Carlos and Konsa I am happy to let Emery look at them in preseason and decide who the best player is. Either way, we have a great back up and Carlos can play in both CB positions quite happily. If we manage to get Pau Torres in as well we will have one of, if not the best quality of depth centre back pairings in the world, surely?

[VillaAlex]

Konsa and Mings have been faultless. Since Emery came in they have been nothing but consistent. In no circumstances when fit should Carlos get into the side over them unless Konsa was to move to right back. Carlos came with a big reputation, however he has been injured and in the small sample didn't make himself irreplaceable. 

 

[CVByrne]

I was wondering if we are planning a more specific 3 CBs at the back next season. So the current RCB can be left footed or right footed if they operate in the central role.

For example Moreno, Mings, Carlos, Konsa or Moreno, Mings, Torres, Carlos

We move to a 3 box 3 in build up it's just how we create that. 

We could see us start with 3 at the back potentially. I think Emery will have some tactical evolutions and maybe having 4 top CBs is a requirement

[ZL-]

3 hours ago, CVByrne said:

I was wondering if we are planning a more specific 3 CBs at the back next season. So the current RCB can be left footed or right footed if they operate in the central role.

For example Moreno, Mings, Carlos, Konsa or Moreno, Mings, Torres, Carlos

We move to a 3 box 3 in build up it's just how we create that. 

We could see us start with 3 at the back potentially. I think Emery will have some tactical evolutions and maybe having 4 top CBs is a requirement

I agree with this, whether it is achieved with a new CB coming in at CCB or LCB or an RB that is closer to a CB makes no difference and achieves the same thing.

Look at the evolution of Pep's City this year, they too adopted a 3 box 3 but given how attack minded the 3 box 3 can be when pushing up in possession - Pep said he learnt it was key to have proper defenders who can handle 1v1 duels, Stones, Dias, Ake, Akanji was essentially a full CB backline that was key in their treble charge.

Our first phase play was much improved but there still is a much higher level to go, more teams will be sitting back vs us and ability on the ball from the backline will be key, as well as being far more natural defending high up the pitch.

 

[CVByrne]

5 minutes ago, ZL- said:

I agree with this, whether it is achieved with a new CB coming in at CCB or LCB or an RB that is closer to a CB makes no difference and achieves the same thing.

Look at the evolution of Pep's City this year, they too adopted a 3 box 3 but given how attack minded the 3 box 3 can be when pushing up in possession - Pep said he learnt it was key to have proper defenders who can handle 1v1 duels, Stones, Dias, Ake, Akanji was essentially a full CB backline that was key in their treble charge.

Our first phase play was much improved but there still is a much higher level to go, more teams will be sitting back vs us and ability on the ball from the backline will be key, as well as being far more natural defending high up the pitch.

 

Obviously we won't have the same level of attacking dominance as City. We do have a dedicated CDM who is an experienced CB in Kamara / Dendonker. We then will play with 3 CBs and the Moreno / Digne attacking LB. 

I wonder if Emery wants the flexibility of switching the attack as in we have the same but RB is the attacking FB. So we can switch the balance and to be less predictable. I also think with RM or LM we will want a winger one side and an 8/10 the other. 

We can create the Box in more than one way. One of front two drops deep and one of the LM/RM moves up to create it. The other attacks into the forward line with a FB on other side. I think this is why we might want a right footed winger / wide player to add to the side. 

Lots of educated guessing here. 

[HKP90]

Awesome tactical analysis on this page. I love the detail, and the way we are flexible. 

As a layman, it sort of feels like an opposition 5-3-2 setup could nullify it somewhat. Would potentially remove all overloads except those in our own half. 

If I played against us, I'd set up as a 5-3-2, and tell my left wing back and left midfielder to bomb toward Young/Cash on the turnover. 

That said, I'm sure Emery will have Plan B for that eventuality.

[DJBOB]

4 hours ago, HKP90 said:

Awesome tactical analysis on this page. I love the detail, and the way we are flexible. 

As a layman, it sort of feels like an opposition 5-3-2 setup could nullify it somewhat. Would potentially remove all overloads except those in our own half. 

If I played against us, I'd set up as a 5-3-2, and tell my left wing back and left midfielder to bomb toward Young/Cash on the turnover. 

That said, I'm sure Emery will have Plan B for that eventuality.

A 532 is the standard for nullifying the popular 3box3 variants. Inter really limited City's chances in the final with the 532 and an aggressive man pressing scheme.

And in general - both Wolves and Forest played a lot of lines with a back 5 against us last season. It will take a while before we are fully exploiting a back line of 5 as it requires the wide areas to be able to beat their players 1v1 and currently Moreno is okay at that and then whoever is playing RW has been poor unless Bailey is playing at home.

But for recruitment - the best managers use the players they have and get the best out of them. Simple stuff but I doubt Pep started this season thinking he was going to functionally play 4 center backs in the UCL final. I doubt Unai envisioned lining up with essentially 4 center midfielders as well for a large part of the season.

What we lack overall is:

• A back up sweeper keeper
• Utility along the back line (besides Kamara occasionally dropping into a back 5 and Chambers), we have almost exclusively centerbacks and fullbacks in their traditional roles. There has been a lot of talk of Konsa moving to RB but I remain unconvinced about this.
• Depth at the double pivot - though this has mostly been solved as we can ostensibly play Kamara/Luiz/Tielemans/McGinn/Dendoncker/Tim if he doesn't go back out on loan for cup games
• And most glaringly - pace and power up front

I think Unai and co. will recruit players that fit that format but also be flexible that they may be playing different positions throughout the year as he learns more about them. Buendia started in one of the wide mid spots until Unai moved him almost exclusively to the second striker role. McGinn was asked to play RM/CM/second striker and almost fullback.

The spine of Unai's system will remain the same - the centerback pairing, the double pivot, and a scoring striker up front. Everything other positions has to be tactically flexible.

Edited June 13, 2023 by DJBOB

[CVByrne]

Also in terms of footedness if that's a phrase, I think we might see a front five as follows LF, RF, Either, LF, RF - so we have Moreno attacking from wide and getting the cut backs, we need a right footed player on opposite wing, probably one who operates from RM. We then need the SS / 10 to be left footed who operates with Watkins and drops deep then in build up and we have JJ who is right footed from the left side coming forward. 

So for me we need a left footed second striker / forward and a right footed winger added to the squad. 

[CVByrne]

4 hours ago, HKP90 said:

Awesome tactical analysis on this page. I love the detail, and the way we are flexible. 

As a layman, it sort of feels like an opposition 5-3-2 setup could nullify it somewhat. Would potentially remove all overloads except those in our own half. 

If I played against us, I'd set up as a 5-3-2, and tell my left wing back and left midfielder to bomb toward Young/Cash on the turnover. 

That said, I'm sure Emery will have Plan B for that eventuality.

No we can create (and do create) the additional overload with Luiz or the Right Back. Luiz can attack and join forward line and RB joins Kamara in midfield making a 2 2 6 or RB attacks wide and the wide forward cuts in.

We have the flexibility to create the overloads

[HKP90]

17 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

A 532 is the standard for nullifying the popular 3box3 variants. Inter really limited City's chances in the final with the 532 and an aggressive man pressing scheme.

And in general - both Wolves and Forest played a lot of lines with a back 5 against us last season. It will take a while before we are fully exploiting a back line of 5 as it requires the wide areas to be able to beat their players 1v1 and currently Moreno is okay at that and then whoever is playing RW has been poor unless Bailey is playing at home.

But for recruitment - the best managers use the players they have and get the best out of them. Simple stuff but I doubt Pep started this season thinking he was going to functionally play 4 center backs in the UCL final. I doubt Unai envisioned lining up with essentially 4 center midfielders as well for a large part of the season.

What we lack overall is:

• A back up sweeper keeper
• Utility along the back line (besides Kamara occasionally dropping into a back 5 and Chambers), we have almost exclusively centerbacks and fullbacks in their traditional roles. There has been a lot of talk of Konsa moving to RB but I remain unconvinced about this.
• Depth at the double pivot - though this has mostly been solved as we can ostensibly play Kamara/Luiz/Tielemans/McGinn/Dendoncker/Tim if he doesn't go back out on loan for cup games
• And most glaringly - pace and power up front

I think Unai and co. will recruit players that fit that format but also be flexible that they may be playing different positions throughout the year as he learns more about them. Buendia started in one of the wide mid spots until Unai moved him almost exclusively to the second striker role. McGinn was asked to play RM/CM/second striker and almost fullback.

The spine of Unai's system will remain the same - the centerback pairing, the double pivot, and a scoring striker up front. Everything other positions has to be tactically flexible.

Great post.

I suppose the glaring issue for me defensively while using this system (with current personnel) is the space behind our wide players, particularly on our right flank. We'll be asking our RB/CB to tuck across toward the centre, and given that Bailey is not great defensively, it leaves an ocean of space between our 'full back' and RM/RW on that side. I know we have and will ask McGinn to come across to cover that, but that stretches the midfield somewhat.
 

For me the recruitment of a RM/RW is therefore vital. We need someone with an engine who can contribute to the attack, but is not so attack minded that they cannot bomb back to cover the RB/RM position. This is why I thought Guendouzi might be perfect for us, sitting a little deeper on that side and capable of both aspects of play. 

I appreciate where @CVByrne is coming from though. It's not as simple as this, and we need, and will have tactical flexibility, but the right hand side still worries me with the way we set up at the moment. 

The other thing we need to consider is whether we want to sacrifice any attacking power to address this. Maybe we don't address it at all, acknowledge it as a weakness, but take a calculated risk to cause the opposition problems. 

[DJBOB]

15 minutes ago, HKP90 said:

Great post.

I suppose the glaring issue for me defensively while using this system (with current personnel) is the space behind our wide players, particularly on our right flank. We'll be asking our RB/CB to tuck across toward the centre, and given that Bailey is not great defensively, it leaves an ocean of space between our 'full back' and RM/RW on that side. I know we have and will ask McGinn to come across to cover that, but that stretches the midfield somewhat.
 

For me the recruitment of a RM/RW is therefore vital. We need someone with an engine who can contribute to the attack, but is not so attack minded that they cannot bomb back to cover the RB/RM position. This is why I thought Guendouzi might be perfect for us, sitting a little deeper on that side and capable of both aspects of play. 

I appreciate where @CVByrne is coming from though. It's not as simple as this, and we need, and will have tactical flexibility, but the right hand side still worries me with the way we set up at the moment. 

The other thing we need to consider is whether we want to sacrifice any attacking power to address this. Maybe we don't address it at all, acknowledge it as a weakness, but take a calculated risk to cause the opposition problems. 

While true - that is usually why the RB is more defensive in our current 3box3 set up. That is the trade off we are making building up in that way. The 3-2 base (three center backs and two center mids) in theory prevent direct counter-attacks in the middle but require both of the outside defenders to be able to deal with a 1v1 coming down the wing against them. 

After the Leicester/City/Arsenal run - we do not usually form the 3box3 until enter the final third. Prior to that - we would form the 3box3 earlier but it led to us being exposed with a high turnover or counter a few times. Post-Leicester we did more of a variation of a 4-2-4/4-2-2-2/4-2-3-1 variant building out in the 1st and 2nd phase so that we had more defensive solidity at the back.