Team shape, tactics and personnel

[duke313]

29 minutes ago, Zatman said:

Think I will scream if I read one more time we are trying to play like Liverpool 

We play nothing like them, they press high we dont. The play widemen we dont. We play a No. 10 they dont

Everything you've said here is correct, but we are trying to play like Liverpool with the full-backs and midfield 3.

[Zatman]

3 minutes ago, duke313 said:

Everything you've said here is correct, but we are trying to play like Liverpool with the full-backs and midfield 3.

But Liverpool can get away with that midfield as TAA is one of the best passers in world football, we dont have that luxury

Its also a system that is killing McGinn and Ramsey and removing there strengths. Both are more effective further up 

[duke313]

3 minutes ago, Zatman said:

But Liverpool can get away with that midfield as TAA is one of the best passers in world football, we dont have that luxury

Its also a system that is killing McGinn and Ramsey and removing there strengths. Both are more effective further up 

I release that, they have a world class team, we don't.  I'm just pointing out that the setup in midfield and the full-back is what SG is trying to implement here, hence the comparisons to Liverpool.

[TRO]

5 hours ago, barry'sboots said:

I can't believe that there are some on here who want to discard SJM.  You only have to look at his Scotland form to see that there is a real player there when deployed in a way that suits his game.

We have taken ourselves up a blind alley, playing Luiz and McGinn in the central 2......but there has been no way out for some time.

To some degree, they should be praised for selflessly playing there for the good of the team....I feel for them, in a way, that their own games have suffered as a result.

When the issue is ultimately remedied....I am looking forward to seeing them challenging for the no 8 spot.

[MrBlack]

If we assume a number 8 is either a box to box player or an attacking central midfielder, then all our midfield 3 can be considered:

Luiz - number 8

McGinn - number 8

Ramsey - number 8

None of them want to be playing deep lying playmaker or ball winner. Playing those 3 in the middle generally doesn't work.

Sanson is a number 8 too, so doesn't help us.

We need a change of personnel if SG wants to keep the shape he is playing.  Nakamba or Tim Iroegbunam need to start our next game.

[OutByEaster?]

7 hours ago, Zatman said:

Think I will scream if I read one more time we are trying to play like Liverpool 

We play nothing like them, they press high we dont. The play widemen we dont. We play a No. 10 they dont

Their wide men are Robertson and TAA with the two main strikers in the channels with licence to drop off and the third attacking player (especially when it was Firmino) given freedom to roam (like a number 10) they then play with three holding midfielders that can protect the two centrebacks and give the full backs the freedom to get forward.

I think that's very similar to the way in which Gerrard wants to operate.

[Listens for screaming in case Zatman lives around the corner]

 

 

 

[OutByEaster?]

Luiz fits the system really well - he's the Thiago in the side - the one that does the passing - it's just that he's one instead of three players.

Luiz, Fabinho and Henderson would be a lovely blend - but Fabinho and Henderson are almost the opposite in terms of style to Ramsey and McGinn.

It'd be a shame to throw the baby out with the bathwater (although sadly it looks like the baby is likely to run his contract down anyway).

 

[smg]

I know it’s an age thing , but as I trawl around the threads I keep seeing references to 6’s, 8’s and 10’s, what the f***s that all about I also see references to a double pivot now and again, what happened to the simple game ? Perhaps that’s why we are struggling at the moment ? It might be an idea to just keep it simple on the pitch and the supporters to just  get behind the team. 

[Tomaszk]

11 hours ago, Delphinho123 said:

You really aren't impressed with Villa atm are you, @Tomaszk!

Shambolic since about November.

We're ruining any chance we have of real progression.

[a m ole]

1 hour ago, smg said:

I know it’s an age thing , but as I trawl around the threads I keep seeing references to 6’s, 8’s and 10’s, what the f***s that all about I also see references to a double pivot now and again, what happened to the simple game ? Perhaps that’s why we are struggling at the moment ? It might be an idea to just keep it simple on the pitch and the supporters to just  get behind the team. 

They’re just easy ways to refer to central midfielders on the pitch.

6 replaces the phrase ‘defensive midfielder’ and it’s variants

8 replaces the phrase ‘box to box midfielder’ and it’s variants

10 replaces the phrase ‘attacking midfielder’ and ‘second striker’

All quite simple concepts and not new at all. Double pivot is just playing two defensive midfielders that are good passers of the ball.

Edited April 27, 2022 by a m ole

[Sulberto21]

13 hours ago, Zatman said:

Think I will scream if I read one more time we are trying to play like Liverpool 

We play nothing like them, they press high we dont. The play widemen we dont. We play a No. 10 they dont

They press high and they defend with the highest line in Europe. but people also forget they’re really compact and well drilled. The spaces between the defence to the midfield to the forwards are quite narrow.

Their fullbacks also play in the half spaces when the forwards drift from their positions. It’s a ridiculous comparison.

The gaps in between our lines mean even the ‘ever-Given’ would sail straight through. 

We addressed this after project restart and continued with it up until the covid outbreak at the club last season. We were in the top 3 for least chances conceded. 

Since January 2021 our defending overall has not been as good as we defended from June 2020 - December 2020. 

[Sulberto21]

6 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

Their wide men are Robertson and TAA with the two main strikers in the channels with licence to drop off and the third attacking player (especially when it was Firmino) given freedom to roam (like a number 10) they then play with three holding midfielders that can protect the two centrebacks and give the full backs the freedom to get forward.

I think that's very similar to the way in which Gerrard wants to operate.

[Listens for screaming in case Zatman lives around the corner]

 

 

 

The problem is that we defend a lot deeper and then the gaps between the lines are much larger than the liverscum ones. We have to defend higher and compress the play much more. 

Our players are better at 4-3-3 with two wide men and hitting teams on the counter. 

[Delphinho123]

7 hours ago, Tomaszk said:

Shambolic since about November.

We're ruining any chance we have of real progression.

Why? Formation and system you think?

[andym]

12 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

Their wide men are Robertson and TAA with the two main strikers in the channels with licence to drop off and the third attacking player (especially when it was Firmino) given freedom to roam (like a number 10) they then play with three holding midfielders that can protect the two centrebacks and give the full backs the freedom to get forward.

I think that's very similar to the way in which Gerrard wants to operate.

[Listens for screaming in case Zatman lives around the corner]

 

 

 

Liverpool are much more flexible and fluid in their approach though.

Salah, Mane, Diaz etc are often to be found high and wide hugging the touchline; however, they love to then cut in, which opens up the space on the overlap for the full backs running from deeper - because of the running power and delivery that Robertson and TAA offer, that is really effective.

In contrast we are keeping our full backs high and wide, and then forcing the ball out to them when they are isolated and static. We then seem to expect them to beat opposition players from a standing start, while our front 3 just stand close together in the middle of the pitch.

Agree about Liverpool's midfield, they provide an extremely solid and compact base, and positionally they are excellent. We end up with far too many big gaps between players.

Liverpool are not really a big, physical side, but their discipline in shape and speed both on and off the ball means they are really good at winning the ball back.

 

Edited April 27, 2022 by andym

[OutByEaster?]

8 hours ago, Sulberto21 said:

Our players are better at 4-3-3 with two wide men and hitting teams on the counter. 

Which makes sense - that's the system that most of them were bought to play in - it was interesting to note that the player that struggled most when we went to 4-3-3 against Leicester was the one player that wasn't brought in by Smith. We are changing and it can be a bit awkward and a bit painful.

 

 

[TRO]

19 hours ago, MrBlack said:

If we assume a number 8 is either a box to box player or an attacking central midfielder, then all our midfield 3 can be considered:

Luiz - number 8

McGinn - number 8

Ramsey - number 8

None of them want to be playing deep lying playmaker or ball winner. Playing those 3 in the middle generally doesn't work.

Sanson is a number 8 too, so doesn't help us.

We need a change of personnel if SG wants to keep the shape he is playing.  Nakamba or Tim Iroegbunam need to start our next game.

I agree, with your point.

They still raise questions

• Is Nakamba good enough for a first team nailed on?
• Is Tim developed enough to be playing every week?

Still important players in my reconing, but sustained first team, right now, not so sure.

If we sign a No6 with sufficent quality, they can morph in to an 8 depending on the dynamics of the game and move with the reading of the game, better quality usually gives more flexibility......Most top players can play more than one role, with competence.

[MrBlack]

56 minutes ago, TRO said:

I agree, with your point.

They still raise questions

• Is Nakamba good enough for a first team nailed on?
• Is Tim developed enough to be playing every week?

Still important players in my reconing, but sustained first team, right now, not so sure.

If we sign a No6 with sufficent quality, they can morph in to an 8 depending on the dynamics of the game and move with the reading of the game, better quality usually gives more flexibility......Most top players can play more than one role, with competence.

I would say no to both your questions but they're the best options we have at the moment for the next match. If it works, then they can be stood by for the foreseeable.

When one is arguably not good enough for where we want to be, and the other is completely unproven,  it shows you how poor the other options are for that position.

To be clear though,  I rate Luiz and would play him further forward. Assuming he'd sign a new contract.

[IrishVilla10]

Could we play Marv and Tim together?

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

6 hours ago, IrishVilla10 said:

Could we play Marv and Tim together?

I've been trying to figure out a potential midfield which could involve both Coutinho and Buendia all day, without nullifying both, and making us too soft in the middle.

 

     Coutinho       Watkins       Buendia

 

                             Ramsey

 

                Luiz                 Iroegbunam

 

Young           Mings           Konsa         Cash   

 

Swap any of the " sitting " midfielders for the likes of Nakamba, Sanson, McGinn etc.

Edited April 27, 2022 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[IrishVilla10]

19 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

I've been trying to figure out a potential midfield which could involve both Coutinho and Buendi all day, without nullifying both, and making us too soft in the middle.

 

     Coutinho       Watkins       Buendia

 

                             Ramsey

 

                Luiz                 Iroegbunam

 

Young           Mings           Konsa         Cash   

 

Swap any of the " sitting " midfielders for the likes of Nakamba, Sanson, McGinn etc.

I like that. My thinking for playing him and Marv together is it takes a bit of the defensive responsibility off him. But at the same time it’ll put more emphasis on him needing to be the more progressive of the two. So maybe Luiz is the best of both