Team shape, tactics and personnel

[VillaFaninLondon]

On 19/04/2022 at 14:59, CVByrne said:

He won't do that. One thing he can take from the 20 games so far is how the full backs and JJ / McGinn have adapted to the big changes asked of them. The issues are CB / CDM and our forwards not in form. Along with lack of leaders / experience in the team.

If he were to switch to a 4 2 3 1 now it means full backs need to be less attacking and one needs to tuck into midfield if the other gets forward. This is such a change for the midfield and full backs it doesn't make longer term sense this late in season to do it if he won't be carrying over the changes to next season. 

If Gerrard had come in and gone with 4 2 3 1 / 4 3 3 from the start we would most likely be higher up the table and have performed better. The squad has been built for that formation through two summer windows under Smith. 

He's a stubborn manager so probably won't change it but given results have been absolutely awful recently, given we have spent a fair whack of money on wingers that just sit there on the bench each week, and given Digne might miss the rest of the season which means 70-year-old Ashley Young at LB, I think an adaptation of tactics and a change of formation would be wise. Young is too old to play as an overlapping FB and Cash is too often caught out of position playing so high up. It might work a bit better if Nakamba comes into the team but I still think he needs to change a few things if we're to end the season on a positive note.

[Philosopher]

So we've all identified two major issues with this squad. 1 is the lack of a quality DM. The other is a lack of height and strength. Having only 2 players in the team that are real physical presences both on the ground and in the air is a real problem. We get bullied, we concede too many goals from set pieces, we are constantly having to win second balls because we stand no chance at winning the first ball. The balance there isn't  right.

This is the cause of most of our defensive issues and only by addressing that weakness in our playing squad can we improve defensively. I don’t mind conceding quality goals, but the preventable ones are far too numerous.

We also have issue with Mcginn, ings, and Watkins. Both Watkins and Mcginn lack the technical quality to play a possession based tiki take style. Ings just isn't doing enough!

Ings with Bailey to his right could work. But both have a lot to prove.

[TRO]

21 hours ago, barry'sboots said:

We saw the significant impact that having a proper DCM can have on Stevie's set up in the first few games before Marv got injured.  4 wins out of 6 and the two losses were narrow defeats to two of the best sides (if not the best - we'll see soon!) in Europe.  I will be the first to admit that I was not a huge fan of Marv but with Stevie's influence and set up Marv looked very effective.  I am more than happy for Marv to stay as back up (possibly whilst Tim gets some first team minutes on loan and builds up his CV) but I think adding a Bissouma/Kondogbia/Phillips/Kamara (?) will elevate our midfield to a new level and will allow Dougie (if he stays?), SJM and Ramsey to focus on what they do well.  SJM has consistently looked fantastic for Scotland in a more advanced role that he hasn't been able to consistently play for us.

Equally, an upgrade at CB to bring in a leader like de Vrij and better back up at full back (Kessler's return plus, ideally, Hickey to compete with Digne) would strengthen our defence.

I think you are spot on - get the platform right and other players will also benefit from this.

I make it 4 signings in the summers - de Vrij, Bissouma, Hickey, Coutinho (or equivalents) - with more exits and I think we could be very competitive. 

Barry, some may laugh at this....but I believe, if we sort the defence out, the attack will improve, I know its a paradox.....its all about team confidence and not having to worry unduly about other area's of the team.

Van dijk and Alison, raised Liverpool to a different level........Newcastles defence has improved and given them confidence.

We don't need to throw the baby out with the bath water......we just need to fix some long standing issues.

4/5 good players in the right positions, will transform us.

[Philosopher]

So for now if I was Gerrard I'd go with one of two plans for offensive problem, and then depending of that plan the appropriate midfield adjustment.

The first is playing playing a front 3 of Continho, Ings and Bailey. Bailey playing close to Ings high up the pitch with few defensive responsibilities and looking to get in behind when coming from deep, and running directly at defenders when play is up by the final third.

The second is and 3 behind a one with Buendia left, Bailey right, Coutinho number 10. Watkins up top, drifting to the left for Buendia to feed and play off, with Bailey coming in from the right looking looking to be unleashed with a quick switching of the play from left to right getting the ball in space heading towards goal.

In midfield Nakamba holding then Luiz next to him as the 2 behind the aforementioned 3. Would give us control and defensive protection. Still lacking height.

The second a three of Nakamba holding, then Irebogum or Luiz alongside Ramsey. Irebogum would offer height, but probably not the control Luiz would offer.

Mcginn out.

[TRO]

I think when ,we fix the defensive midfield issues......and John McGinn plays further forward, his form, will return, to what we know it.....The one scoring in the 0-3 demolition of Arsenal, even if it was disallowed.

Edited April 21, 2022 by TRO

[Dale]

2 hours ago, TRO said:

Gerrard needs the players who can be instructed to play his way.....right now, its not happening granted

That's the thing I don't get the impression his way is pressing. We have the best pressing striker in the league and he isn't pressing anywhere near as regularly or intensely nowadays. I can only assume this is by design, in transition, we're all about recovering shape. 

If he wanted hard work and pressure, he'd be playing Buendia over Coutinho/playing him at all. I just don't see it being his way. Intense pressing is not the way that we're set up, McGinn/Sanson/Buendia/Ramsey all have the energy for it in the middle of the park. The shape mismatch further up the pitch (narrowness) also compromises the idea that we're looking to be an intense pressing team. 

[TRO]

2 minutes ago, Dale said:

That's the thing I don't get the impression his way is pressing. We have the best pressing striker in the league and he isn't pressing anywhere near as regularly or intensely nowadays. I can only assume this is by design, in transition, we're all about recovering shape. 

If he wanted hard work and pressure, he'd be playing Buendia over Coutinho/playing him at all. I just don't see it being his way. Intense pressing is not the way that we're set up, McGinn/Sanson/Buendia/Ramsey all have the energy for it in the middle of the park. The shape mismatch further up the pitch (narrowness) also compromises the idea that we're looking to be an intense pressing team. 

I think pressing only works when many are doing it, not just one.

I thought against Spurs we was doing it,to a degree and doing it well first half and in certain games we do......its just not consistent or sustained.

You need to be a very fit team with loads of energy to do it, and the the nous to go further and win the ball.....I don't think we have enough personnel to feel comfortable with that.

I think SG for his sins, does get influenced by Liverpool, but he doesn't have the players to play like Liverpool of have their traits....personally, I don't think its a bad model to get influenced by.

 

[sne]

As others have said we are never going to have an effective high press featuring Coutinho. 

Will also be easy to bypass since our tactic leaves massive gaps in the middle when our CM's have to cover wide for the fullbacks 

Edited April 22, 2022 by sne
For clarity

[Dale]

9 minutes ago, TRO said:

I don't think its a bad model to get influenced by.

I would love it if we played like Liverpool. But I've seldom seen us set out to do so. I feel a bit like Gerrard is meshing multiple Liverpool's together - which is possibly the issue. 

I wish we'd start with wide attackers as Liverpool do, Salah and Mane start wide and drift inwards, the width from full backs is not the starting point, they tend to arrive later in attacks. Ironically our most Liverpool like attacker was Anwar (who did score a fair amount). 

 

[TRO]

8 minutes ago, Dale said:

I would love it if we played like Liverpool. But I've seldom seen us set out to do so. I feel a bit like Gerrard is meshing multiple Liverpool's together - which is possibly the issue. 

I wish we'd start with wide attackers as Liverpool do, Salah and Mane start wide and drift inwards, the width from full backs is not the starting point, they tend to arrive later in attacks. Ironically our most Liverpool like attacker was Anwar (who did score a fair amount). 

 

Yeah I get that....but this is where our visuals differ, I envy these players......

Van Dijk, Matip, Fabinho, Henderson, Konate, Kieta, Thiago, Milner,.....sure their attack catches the eye naturally, I get that, but look at who gives them the licence to play.....I think that is where the big difference lies, too.

Edited April 22, 2022 by TRO

[Delphinho123]

On 21/04/2022 at 10:22, Philosopher said:

So we've all identified two major issues with this squad. 1 is the lack of a quality DM. The other is a lack of height and strength. Having only 2 players in the team that are real physical presences both on the ground and in the air is a real problem. We get bullied, we concede too many goals from set pieces, we are constantly having to win second balls because we stand no chance at winning the first ball. The balance there isn't  right.

This is the cause of most of our defensive issues and only by addressing that weakness in our playing squad can we improve defensively. I don’t mind conceding quality goals, but the preventable ones are far too numerous.

We also have issue with Mcginn, ings, and Watkins. Both Watkins and Mcginn lack the technical quality to play a possession based tiki take style. Ings just isn't doing enough!

Ings with Bailey to his right could work. But both have a lot to prove.

Good post. I think we often overlook how nice we are to play against. I’m not saying we should morph into Burnley, but West Ham are a good example of a team that are tough to play against. Zouma, Rice, Soucek, Antonio as a spine is very physical and all offer something aerially. 

If we’re going to play Buendia and Coutinho in the side together, we might need to make up for that lack of height and strength in other areas. 

[andym]

On 21/04/2022 at 10:22, Philosopher said:

So we've all identified two major issues with this squad. 1 is the lack of a quality DM. The other is a lack of height and strength. Having only 2 players in the team that are real physical presences both on the ground and in the air is a real problem. We get bullied, we concede too many goals from set pieces, we are constantly having to win second balls because we stand no chance at winning the first ball. The balance there isn't  right.

This is the cause of most of our defensive issues and only by addressing that weakness in our playing squad can we improve defensively. I don’t mind conceding quality goals, but the preventable ones are far too numerous.

We also have issue with Mcginn, ings, and Watkins. Both Watkins and Mcginn lack the technical quality to play a possession based tiki take style. Ings just isn't doing enough!

Ings with Bailey to his right could work. But both have a lot to prove.

Last season only 3 teams conceded less from set pieces than us, and the height profile of the team was no different then.

Our biggest problem is positional; we dont get close enough to each other or to opposition.

That's been excacerbated at the moment by tactics that leave us with basically the two centre backs (and Luiz when he's not told to press) trying to defend when the opposition have the ball.

Even the best DM is not going to solve that issue.

People going on about how good Nakamba looked in Gerrard's first few games - because we sat deep, conceded possession (averaged around 35%) and the resulting compressed nature of the game allowed him to shine. We kept it simple and nicked some goals on the counter and from set pieces (and thats not a dig at Gerrard, because it was exactly what we needed at the time)

[VillaParkAvenue]

2 hours ago, Delphinho123 said:

Good post. I think we often overlook how nice we are to play against. I’m not saying we should morph into Burnley, but West Ham are a good example of a team that are tough to play against. Zouma, Rice, Soucek, Antonio as a spine is very physical and all offer something aerially. 

If we’re going to play Buendia and Coutinho in the side together, we might need to make up for that lack of height and strength in other areas. 

West Ham are often rightly praised for their physicality, but they’re also proof you need more dimensions to be a really good team.

Being physical could be more effective against lesser teams, but less so against quality teams with players who can avoid and get around you.

Also not sure Villa are that nice to play against (except for the fact we don’t score goals…) I don’t think Cash, Mings, McGinn or Ramsey are nice to meet.

Edited April 22, 2022 by VillaParkAvenue

[Chicken Field]

Bunn

Bree - Chester - Jedinak - Hutton

Adomah - Onomah - Lansbury - Hourihane - Kodjia

Hogan

Manager: Steve Bruce

This was our lineup only 4 years ago in a 1-0 loss to Milwall..  Hourihane (I think), is the only one of those that has gone on to play in the premier league, which he arguably did not possess the quality to do.

 

We Villa fans, football fans in general and I do include myself too, do like to moan about our current situation, manager, football style and players. It is incredible how quickly people in general forget the past and lose perspective. we would have killed to be in our current situation 4 years ago.

The improvement on and of the pitch at Villa these past 4 years has been incredible, we're moving at a million miles per hour and we were due a disappointing season. Long may this mammoth improvement continue!

 

[Philosopher]

1 hour ago, andym said:

Last season only 3 teams conceded less from set pieces than us, and the height profile of the team was no different then.

Our biggest problem is positional; we dont get close enough to each other or to opposition.

That's been excacerbated at the moment by tactics that leave us with basically the two centre backs (and Luiz when he's not told to press) trying to defend when the opposition have the ball.

Even the best DM is not going to solve that issue.

People going on about how good Nakamba looked in Gerrard's first few games - because we sat deep, conceded possession (averaged around 35%) and the resulting compressed nature of the game allowed him to shine. We kept it simple and nicked some goals on the counter and from set pieces (and thats not a dig at Gerrard, because it was exactly what we needed at the time)

You make good points, but our lightwieght nature outside central defence is a clear weakness also.

Last season we played with narrower and less adventerous fullbacks, and at the same time two defensive midfielders. This meant we were able to easily get 6 outfield players behind the ball. Combined with us playing more of a counter attacking style meant teams didn't really get much space of time on our own half, and unless we went behind the defensive line stayed a little deep. We basically had more men behind the ball so were able to better compete for second balls. Which supports your point.

However what we also saw last season was that when teams were aggressive and pressed high we struggled to get out of our own half (like this season), we very much relied on Martinez being in excellent form, and defending deep and in numbers, with a little relief provided by the Watkins Grealish link up. This season it's the same only no Jack to relieve the pressure. Last season our strength was defending leads, it's a weakness this season.

Ultimately we are trying to play more on the front foot under Gerrard, and we also having to play more on the front foot , due to going behind early a lot. This means we have to defend man for man more (rather than being able to double up), and have to be harder to play through. This puts greater requirements on the defensive attributes of players, and strength and aerial abilty are defensive attributes (the ones we lack most in). I have also mentioned a quality DM in tandem to improving the stregth and aerial ability.

It's little percentages here and there that make a difference. If we were winning more headers in midfield, if the DM in front of our back 4 was more robust and strong in the tackle it would certainly make a difference. If a smaller weaker player gets tight on a bigger stronger player, the smaller player usually loses out. We are having to rely on sharpness to nip in and win the ball. When we had men back, we could afford to lose the first challenge as a second and even third would be on it's way. If we are to defend well while playing higher up the pitch and controling possession then we need to win the first challenge and if not the second.

We also had Terry in charge of coaching the defence , which is a massive loss.

The other big problem (outside of a lack of strength and height and quality DM) with our defending this season is that we have been very poor in defending the counter attack. Much of this is down to losing individual duels, and giving the ball away cheaply. Which is down to a combination of poor tackling, over-committing, and getting out muscled. This is certainly connected to us lacking compactness (as you said). We are pressing high, with at least one of our fullbacks high up, yet the CB's are still quite deep, while our DM is going walkabout and Mcginn is constantly out of position. To make matters worse powerful runners can burst through our midfield at will almost. If you anaylse those counter attacking moments you see no cohesive attempt to play the offside trap, powerful runners bursting through our midfield, long balls not being contested effectively till the ball hits the ground and defenders constantly having to run towards their own goal it's a shambles. It's far to easy to bypass our midfield. This is down to positioning  and compactness of course, but also down to being weak in the tackle, weak in the air, and poor antiscipation.

Last season it was apparent to me that we lacked strength and height in midfield. its just more apparent this season. Over the last two seasons we have constantly seen McGinn up against the tall oposition players (like Soucek and Rodri) on corners. This is a clear area teams can expliot.

 

[TRO]

13 hours ago, Philosopher said:

You make good points, but our lightwieght nature outside central defence is a clear weakness also.

Last season we played with narrower and less adventerous fullbacks, and at the same time two defensive midfielders. This meant we were able to easily get 6 outfield players behind the ball. Combined with us playing more of a counter attacking style meant teams didn't really get much space of time on our own half, and unless we went behind the defensive line stayed a little deep. We basically had more men behind the ball so were able to better compete for second balls. Which supports your point.

However what we also saw last season was that when teams were aggressive and pressed high we struggled to get out of our own half (like this season), we very much relied on Martinez being in excellent form, and defending deep and in numbers, with a little relief provided by the Watkins Grealish link up. This season it's the same only no Jack to relieve the pressure. Last season our strength was defending leads, it's a weakness this season.

Ultimately we are trying to play more on the front foot under Gerrard, and we also having to play more on the front foot , due to going behind early a lot. This means we have to defend man for man more (rather than being able to double up), and have to be harder to play through. This puts greater requirements on the defensive attributes of players, and strength and aerial abilty are defensive attributes (the ones we lack most in). I have also mentioned a quality DM in tandem to improving the stregth and aerial ability.

It's little percentages here and there that make a difference. If we were winning more headers in midfield, if the DM in front of our back 4 was more robust and strong in the tackle it would certainly make a difference. If a smaller weaker player gets tight on a bigger stronger player, the smaller player usually loses out. We are having to rely on sharpness to nip in and win the ball. When we had men back, we could afford to lose the first challenge as a second and even third would be on it's way. If we are to defend well while playing higher up the pitch and controling possession then we need to win the first challenge and if not the second.

We also had Terry in charge of coaching the defence , which is a massive loss.

The other big problem (outside of a lack of strength and height and quality DM) with our defending this season is that we have been very poor in defending the counter attack. Much of this is down to losing individual duels, and giving the ball away cheaply. Which is down to a combination of poor tackling, over-committing, and getting out muscled. This is certainly connected to us lacking compactness (as you said). We are pressing high, with at least one of our fullbacks high up, yet the CB's are still quite deep, while our DM is going walkabout and Mcginn is constantly out of position. To make matters worse powerful runners can burst through our midfield at will almost. If you anaylse those counter attacking moments you see no cohesive attempt to play the offside trap, powerful runners bursting through our midfield, long balls not being contested effectively till the ball hits the ground and defenders constantly having to run towards their own goal it's a shambles. It's far to easy to bypass our midfield. This is down to positioning  and compactness of course, but also down to being weak in the tackle, weak in the air, and poor antiscipation.

Last season it was apparent to me that we lacked strength and height in midfield. its just more apparent this season. Over the last two seasons we have constantly seen McGinn up against the tall oposition players (like Soucek and Rodri) on corners. This is a clear area teams can expliot.

 

well put.

[nepal_villan]

Not seeing anything to hold on to. Team looks lost. They have no clue how to get the ball out of the back. Midfield is invisible. Press is inept. 

[messi11]

Leicester didn't look much better. Clean sheet is a huge postive.
We cant string 3 passes together in the midfield. I think Mcginn and Luiz has run its course, they been with us for the last 3 season and now its time for a big change up in the middle. Bailey and watkins was lively. Coutinho had some nice touches but couldn't influence the game 
 

Edited April 24, 2022 by messi11

[Tom13]

30 minutes ago, messi11 said:

Leicester didn't look much better. Clean sheet is a huge postive.
We cant string 3 passes together in the midfield. I think Mcginn and Luiz has run its course, they been with us for the last 3 season and now its time for a big change up in the middle. Bailey and watkins was lively. Coutinho had some nice touches but couldn't influence the game 
 

Leicester have Roma midweek, I know where their focus is with nothing to play for in the league.

Edited April 24, 2022 by Tom13

[OutByEaster?]

I think our midfield problems come to an extent from not having the right natural players in the right spots or a formation that fits the players we do have.

I've read quite a few (sensible) posts on here in the last few days about players who are 8's - I don't think under his preferred formation, Gerrard wants to play with any 8's, although I think he's made an allowance this season for Ramsey.

i think the preference is three 6's and two 10's - we've deviated from that by playing with a single 10 and two forwards quite a lot, and Gerrard has made a big adjustment in allowing Ramsey more freedom than the others in getting forward - he's almost an 8.

That's a problem for some of our players, most notably McGinn, who is naturally an 8 - we're asking him to do lots of work deeper; work cleaning up, work keeping possession, work sticking with runners, all the stuff he's not as strong at - he's still a very good player, but I'm not sure he's a great fit at the moment and he looks bad doing all the things that aren't his strengths.

I think with three 6's (the way that Liverpool play) Luiz would fit in very nicely, he's the Thiago equivalent if you like - but we don't have a Fabinho, a Henderson or a Keita - players that have either the physicality or the energy to do the defensive running or defend balls around the box that they do - and playing with two 6's and Ramsey makes that even clearer - Luiz is asked to do an awful lot of stuff.

With McGinn a natural 8 being asked to do a lot more 6'ing than he'd like and Ramsey freed up to go forward, there's an imbalance.

In the way we play, we start 4-3-2-1 (or 4-3-1-2) but when we have the ball the fullbacks push high up and we're 2-3-4-1 - when we do that, the 3 in midfield have to be disciplined and hold the shape, protecting the back four and getting the ball to the 4 in front of them - there's a lot of water needs carrying - with Ramsey getting forward, we're 2-2-5-1 on the ball at times and we're exposed. 

For balance, I think by nature the three midfielders that most naturally fit our shape are Luiz, Iroegbunam and Nakamba - but Ramsey has been brilliant, Iroegbunam is just a kid and Nakamba isn't as good a player as McGinn or Sanson - that would though be a midfield of players in their natural roles.

I think if we went to a structured 4-2-3-1 with Ramsey in the middle of that 3 and played Luiz and Iroegbunam, we'd be getting a good fit from what we have - use McGinn when Ramsey isn't playing well and use Nakamba when Iroegbunam or Luiz aren't - for me at the moment, we have McGinn in the wrong line of our formation. 

It's also difficult for players that are 10's but can play as 8's - Buendia and Chukwuemeka for example - in my opinion both are better further forward but they are both capable of playing as attacking 8's rather than 10's. That option isn't available to them in our system as we ask our midfielders to do a lot of 6'ing and neither of them are right for that - you could at a push put either of them where Ramsey is - but where Ramsey works well it's because of his powerful running and we would have to change our style to put either of them in his position. With Coutinho nailed on to start and no other natural position in the shape, that's restricting their opportunities.

I think the emergence of Iroegbunam is a massive plus for us, I think Luiz will go in the summer which is a pity as I think he'd be great next to him, I think we'll sign at least one more and quite probably two - but I don't think McGinn's fantastic attitude and underlying ability can overcome there being no natural role for him in the side and frankly, I don't think Nakamba is good enough to be anything but an emergency backup, which I don't think it would be fair for us to ask him to do at 28.

Of Luiz, McGinn, Ramsey, Nakamba, Sanson and Iroegbunam - I can see a situation in which only Ramsey and Ireogbunam are still here in 15 months time, I'd love to keep Luiz, but I'm not sure any of the others are going to take us where we want to go.