MaVilla Posted April 24, 2022 Author Share Posted April 24, 2022 26 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: I think our midfield problems come to an extent from not having the right natural players in the right spots or a formation that fits the players we do have. I've read quite a few (sensible) posts on here in the last few days about players who are 8's - I don't think under his preferred formation, Gerrard wants to play with any 8's, although I think he's made an allowance this season for Ramsey. i think the preference is three 6's and two 10's - we've deviated from that by playing with a single 10 and two forwards quite a lot, and Gerrard has made a big adjustment in allowing Ramsey more freedom than the others in getting forward - he's almost an 8. That's a problem for some of our players, most notably McGinn, who is naturally an 8 - we're asking him to do lots of work deeper; work cleaning up, work keeping possession, work sticking with runners, all the stuff he's not as strong at - he's still a very good player, but I'm not sure he's a great fit at the moment and he looks bad doing all the things that aren't his strengths. I think with three 6's (the way that Liverpool play) Luiz would fit in very nicely, he's the Thiago equivalent if you like - but we don't have a Fabinho, a Henderson or a Keita - players that have either the physicality or the energy to do the defensive running or defend balls around the box that they do - and playing with two 6's and Ramsey makes that even clearer - Luiz is asked to do an awful lot of stuff. With McGinn a natural 8 being asked to do a lot more 6'ing than he'd like and Ramsey freed up to go forward, there's an imbalance. In the way we play, we start 4-3-2-1 (or 4-3-1-2) but when we have the ball the fullbacks push high up and we're 2-3-4-1 - when we do that, the 3 in midfield have to be disciplined and hold the shape, protecting the back four and getting the ball to the 4 in front of them - there's a lot of water needs carrying - with Ramsey getting forward, we're 2-2-5-1 on the ball at times and we're exposed. For balance, I think by nature the three midfielders that most naturally fit our shape are Luiz, Iroegbunam and Nakamba - but Ramsey has been brilliant, Iroegbunam is just a kid and Nakamba isn't as good a player as McGinn or Sanson - that would though be a midfield of players in their natural roles. I think if we went to a structured 4-2-3-1 with Ramsey in the middle of that 3 and played Luiz and Iroegbunam, we'd be getting a good fit from what we have - use McGinn when Ramsey isn't playing well and use Nakamba when Iroegbunam or Luiz aren't - for me at the moment, we have McGinn in the wrong line of our formation. It's also difficult for players that are 10's but can play as 8's - Buendia and Chukwuemeka for example - in my opinion both are better further forward but they are both capable of playing as attacking 8's rather than 10's. That option isn't available to them in our system as we ask our midfielders to do a lot of 6'ing and neither of them are right for that - you could at a push put either of them where Ramsey is - but where Ramsey works well it's because of his powerful running and we would have to change our style to put either of them in his position. With Coutinho nailed on to start and no other natural position in the shape, that's restricting their opportunities. I think the emergence of Iroegbunam is a massive plus for us, I think Luiz will go in the summer which is a pity as I think he'd be great next to him, I think we'll sign at least one more and quite probably two - but I don't think McGinn's fantastic attitude and underlying ability can overcome there being no natural role for him in the side and frankly, I don't think Nakamba is good enough to be anything but an emergency backup, which I don't think it would be fair for us to ask him to do at 28. Of Luiz, McGinn, Ramsey, Nakamba, Sanson and Iroegbunam - I can see a situation in which only Ramsey and Ireogbunam are still here in 15 months time, I'd love to keep Luiz, but I'm not sure any of the others are going to take us where we want to go. good post. I have also thought that Gerrard basically wants to play like Liverpool, or very, very similar, which as you say, kind of needs 3 x 6's (maybe not specific 6's, but defensive players who can also play football, to allow the full backs to kick on, just like Liverpool..... The problem is, as you alluded to, is we dont have suitable players for this, and/or the players just simply arent good enough for it. i think this summer will be really, really critical.......i think we need to really hope Gerrard gets the players in he wants, becuase if we bring in average players, we will just end up with more of the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomaszk Posted April 24, 2022 Share Posted April 24, 2022 I'm very concerned about the quality of coaching. Beale talk was all positive before he arrived. We are exactly where we were when they came in performance wise. I thought it was much more of a 433 yesterday, which is a step in the right direction. Any direction away from everyone in the middle of the pitch is a good move. If it isn't working you don't just press on, sleepwalking into a relegation battle, you must attempt something different. Everything else was still crap, but there was an attempt. There was an attempt at pressing but the whole team behind the forwards was about 30 yards too deep. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAMAICAN-VILLAN Posted April 24, 2022 Share Posted April 24, 2022 What would people like to see against Norwich? Ollie Coutinho Buendia Bailey Ramsey Iroegbunam OR Coutinho Ollie Buendia Ramsey Iroegbunam Luiz OR Ollie Bailey Ramsey Luiz Buendia Iroegbunam Although in reality, McGinn will probably in one of those places. I've always wondered if we could do a 4 - 1 - 4 - 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul514 Posted April 25, 2022 Share Posted April 25, 2022 2 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said: What would people like to see against Norwich? Ollie Coutinho Buendia Bailey Ramsey Iroegbunam OR Coutinho Ollie Buendia Ramsey Iroegbunam Luiz OR Ollie Bailey Ramsey Luiz Buendia Iroegbunam Although in reality, McGinn will probably in one of those places. I've always wondered if we could do a 4 - 1 - 4 - 1 Ings Bailey Buendia Ramsey Luiz. Tim 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaParkAvenue Posted April 25, 2022 Share Posted April 25, 2022 Watkins. Ings. Buendia Ramsey. Luiz. Sanson Coutinho on the bench. Carney and Tim on at 60 mins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVByrne Posted April 25, 2022 Share Posted April 25, 2022 9 hours ago, OutByEaster? said: I think our midfield problems come to an extent from not having the right natural players in the right spots or a formation that fits the players we do have. I've read quite a few (sensible) posts on here in the last few days about players who are 8's - I don't think under his preferred formation, Gerrard wants to play with any 8's, although I think he's made an allowance this season for Ramsey. i think the preference is three 6's and two 10's - we've deviated from that by playing with a single 10 and two forwards quite a lot, and Gerrard has made a big adjustment in allowing Ramsey more freedom than the others in getting forward - he's almost an 8. That's a problem for some of our players, most notably McGinn, who is naturally an 8 - we're asking him to do lots of work deeper; work cleaning up, work keeping possession, work sticking with runners, all the stuff he's not as strong at - he's still a very good player, but I'm not sure he's a great fit at the moment and he looks bad doing all the things that aren't his strengths. I think with three 6's (the way that Liverpool play) Luiz would fit in very nicely, he's the Thiago equivalent if you like - but we don't have a Fabinho, a Henderson or a Keita - players that have either the physicality or the energy to do the defensive running or defend balls around the box that they do - and playing with two 6's and Ramsey makes that even clearer - Luiz is asked to do an awful lot of stuff. With McGinn a natural 8 being asked to do a lot more 6'ing than he'd like and Ramsey freed up to go forward, there's an imbalance. In the way we play, we start 4-3-2-1 (or 4-3-1-2) but when we have the ball the fullbacks push high up and we're 2-3-4-1 - when we do that, the 3 in midfield have to be disciplined and hold the shape, protecting the back four and getting the ball to the 4 in front of them - there's a lot of water needs carrying - with Ramsey getting forward, we're 2-2-5-1 on the ball at times and we're exposed. For balance, I think by nature the three midfielders that most naturally fit our shape are Luiz, Iroegbunam and Nakamba - but Ramsey has been brilliant, Iroegbunam is just a kid and Nakamba isn't as good a player as McGinn or Sanson - that would though be a midfield of players in their natural roles. I think if we went to a structured 4-2-3-1 with Ramsey in the middle of that 3 and played Luiz and Iroegbunam, we'd be getting a good fit from what we have - use McGinn when Ramsey isn't playing well and use Nakamba when Iroegbunam or Luiz aren't - for me at the moment, we have McGinn in the wrong line of our formation. It's also difficult for players that are 10's but can play as 8's - Buendia and Chukwuemeka for example - in my opinion both are better further forward but they are both capable of playing as attacking 8's rather than 10's. That option isn't available to them in our system as we ask our midfielders to do a lot of 6'ing and neither of them are right for that - you could at a push put either of them where Ramsey is - but where Ramsey works well it's because of his powerful running and we would have to change our style to put either of them in his position. With Coutinho nailed on to start and no other natural position in the shape, that's restricting their opportunities. I think the emergence of Iroegbunam is a massive plus for us, I think Luiz will go in the summer which is a pity as I think he'd be great next to him, I think we'll sign at least one more and quite probably two - but I don't think McGinn's fantastic attitude and underlying ability can overcome there being no natural role for him in the side and frankly, I don't think Nakamba is good enough to be anything but an emergency backup, which I don't think it would be fair for us to ask him to do at 28. Of Luiz, McGinn, Ramsey, Nakamba, Sanson and Iroegbunam - I can see a situation in which only Ramsey and Ireogbunam are still here in 15 months time, I'd love to keep Luiz, but I'm not sure any of the others are going to take us where we want to go. I discussed this earlier in the thread about why it's too big of a change to move to 4 2 3 1 now. To do that means the full backs need to change how they play and the midfielders. With the flat 3 in midfield they cover for the full backs getting forward in every attack. I do agree our squad is built for the formation so it is the best fit for our players but Gerrard is too far down the road with the attacking full backs and flat 3 midfield. I don't think they are three 6's I still think it's more of a blend in there in possession with Ramsey getting forward more and the other two moving to cover for that. Also vice versa if McGinn gets forward (less regularly). I still think the extreme attacking full backs system doesn't suit a team of our level in the league. I would prefer one to get forward and the other to tuck into midfield and that is how to best use 4 2 3 1 while keeping a 5 / 5 defence / attack split 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted April 25, 2022 Share Posted April 25, 2022 (edited) 14 hours ago, paul514 said: I am. He hasn’t improved anything, some things have got worse. The formation is stupid and he shouldn’t be trusted with the summer budget. The club should admit the error, pay him off and choose again. And you are entitled to your opinion on him. but tell me what formation you would choose from this squad?.....that makes such a profound view, that its stupid.....and what has the ability to buy good players, got to do with the formation, directly, the balance, yes, I would agree with that.....but do you want more wingers? Maybe the club does'nt agree with you, so no error is made, in their eyes. So if the powers that be made this error according to you, what makes you think they will get it right to your way of thinking, next time?...or shall we get rid of the hierarchy too? Edited April 25, 2022 by TRO 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul514 Posted April 26, 2022 Share Posted April 26, 2022 8 hours ago, TRO said: And you are entitled to your opinion on him. but tell me what formation you would choose from this squad?.....that makes such a profound view, that its stupid.....and what has the ability to buy good players, got to do with the formation, directly, the balance, yes, I would agree with that.....but do you want more wingers? Maybe the club does'nt agree with you, so no error is made, in their eyes. So if the powers that be made this error according to you, what makes you think they will get it right to your way of thinking, next time?...or shall we get rid of the hierarchy too? 4-2-3-1 Somewhat attacking fullbacks not gung ho Double pivot to have at least one true 6 with at least a 6/8 hybrid next to him if not another 6 Wide players to provide width and opportunities on the break and for out balls from defence The central player in the three could be numerous types of midfielder depending on the tactics you want to play due to the defensive solidity of the double pivot with actual DCM's playing there. Gerrard's system only works with world class full backs like at Liverpool, and doesn't have anywhere near enough width. It is too one dimensional and easy to stop. I have no idea what the club agrees with, why they chose an unproven manager with regards to top leagues and one with a different system to the one the players were purchased for. Why do I think they would get it right next time? I don't think they would get it right or wrong next time, I have no idea of the remit or who they would pick. I only know this isn't working. As for getting rid of the hierarchy, I wouldn't want different owners obviously, the CEO can make mistakes.... you could argue the DOF hasn't been there long enough to be judged. If the CEO/DOF kept making mistakes you would evaluate it then. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted April 26, 2022 Share Posted April 26, 2022 6 hours ago, paul514 said: 4-2-3-1 Somewhat attacking fullbacks not gung ho Double pivot to have at least one true 6 with at least a 6/8 hybrid next to him if not another 6 Wide players to provide width and opportunities on the break and for out balls from defence The central player in the three could be numerous types of midfielder depending on the tactics you want to play due to the defensive solidity of the double pivot with actual DCM's playing there. Gerrard's system only works with world class full backs like at Liverpool, and doesn't have anywhere near enough width. It is too one dimensional and easy to stop. I have no idea what the club agrees with, why they chose an unproven manager with regards to top leagues and one with a different system to the one the players were purchased for. Why do I think they would get it right next time? I don't think they would get it right or wrong next time, I have no idea of the remit or who they would pick. I only know this isn't working. As for getting rid of the hierarchy, I wouldn't want different owners obviously, the CEO can make mistakes.... you could argue the DOF hasn't been there long enough to be judged. If the CEO/DOF kept making mistakes you would evaluate it then. We have tried 4-2-3-1 in the past with these players to no avail Against Leicester the full backs were more conservative The double pivot with Luiz and McGinn doesn't work very well, and I agree with your proposal.....but we haven't got the players to play it, yet. The wide players we have used in the past, don't show any kind of consistency, or any regularoty of getting behind defences.....they become passengers very easily. Right now, I agree with your assessment of the full backs, but maybe we are in transition, for whats coming in in the summer, to compensate the full backs. The players were purchased under Dean Smiths Tenure, they suffice for staying up......The plan is to move forward, we haven't got a full team to do that yet.....They brought in a high profile name to help us attract the players we need to move forward, not to end up middle table for years, because thats what we will do with some of the players we have. This is working to a degree, we have just been flirting in 9th place, from 16th only to hit a bumpy road with some tough fixtures.....Eddie howe has just hit that spot and they are talking about Manager of the years in some circles....He has 2 more games than SG and played very few top teams along the way, winning by the odd goals.....suggests defensive strenghtening does work. I have faith in our owners and Christian Purslow, not sure about Johan.....but he is certainly afforded more time than our manager, so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom13 Posted April 26, 2022 Share Posted April 26, 2022 Not happy with Gerrard but Poch? Come on. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul514 Posted April 26, 2022 Share Posted April 26, 2022 43 minutes ago, TRO said: We have tried 4-2-3-1 in the past with these players to no avail Against Leicester the full backs were more conservative The double pivot with Luiz and McGinn doesn't work very well, and I agree with your proposal.....but we haven't got the players to play it, yet. The wide players we have used in the past, don't show any kind of consistency, or any regularoty of getting behind defences.....they become passengers very easily. Right now, I agree with your assessment of the full backs, but maybe we are in transition, for whats coming in in the summer, to compensate the full backs. The players were purchased under Dean Smiths Tenure, they suffice for staying up......The plan is to move forward, we haven't got a full team to do that yet.....They brought in a high profile name to help us attract the players we need to move forward, not to end up middle table for years, because thats what we will do with some of the players we have. This is working to a degree, we have just been flirting in 9th place, from 16th only to hit a bumpy road with some tough fixtures.....Eddie howe has just hit that spot and they are talking about Manager of the years in some circles....He has 2 more games than SG and played very few top teams along the way, winning by the odd goals.....suggests defensive strenghtening does work. I have faith in our owners and Christian Purslow, not sure about Johan.....but he is certainly afforded more time than our manager, so far. 4-2-3-1 Worked last year, it is just a base system the players still have to be given additional tactics in the game like they do with any system. I don't think McGinn should be playing for us if he isn't the furthest forward of the midfield 3. Luis and an actual DCM would work better whether that is Nakamba now he is back or Tim. He also had the option to buy one in January instead of Digne/Coutinho or in addition to. The wide players need a solid basis of a team behind them so they can play their attacking game, we haven't seen them in that system due to the previously mentioned system, personal, injuries to the wide forwards and so on. Most of the players we have are good enough for top half finishes, they all are really its just a few of them have to go because the midfield doesn't work with so many samey players. It isn't working at all. The football is dreadful to watch, we don't create anywhere near enough chances, I don't go by places in the league I go by points as a metric.... 55 vs 37 with 6 games to go, to even break even he has to win all 6. He will probably finish with 10 less points with a better squad than Dean had, playing worse football in a worse system, devaluing our players. Then going I need new players to make my dumb system work. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barry'sboots Posted April 26, 2022 Share Posted April 26, 2022 On 21/04/2022 at 10:39, TRO said: I think when ,we fix the defensive midfield issues......and John McGinn plays further forward, his form, will return, to what we know it.....The one scoring in the 0-3 demolition of Arsenal, even if it was disallowed. I can't believe that there are some on here who want to discard SJM. You only have to look at his Scotland form to see that there is a real player there when deployed in a way that suits his game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted April 26, 2022 Moderator Share Posted April 26, 2022 On 24/04/2022 at 23:41, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said: What would people like to see against Norwich? Ollie Coutinho Buendia Bailey Ramsey Iroegbunam OR Coutinho Ollie Buendia Ramsey Iroegbunam Luiz OR Ollie Bailey Ramsey Luiz Buendia Iroegbunam Although in reality, McGinn will probably in one of those places. I've always wondered if we could do a 4 - 1 - 4 - 1 I know it's not really relevant to the current first 11 or manager (so why are you mentioning it then BOF?) - but the only 4141 we've used this season was a slightly terrifying line-up at home to Brentford that drew 1-1 back in August. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted April 26, 2022 Share Posted April 26, 2022 4 minutes ago, BOF said: I know it's not really relevant to the current first 11 or manager (so why are you mentioning it then BOF?) - but the only 4141 we've used this season was a slightly terrifying line-up at home to Brentford that drew 1-1 back in August. That spine is terrifying for a Premier League game. Luiz had to return early for this game from his holidays Shows what last management had to deal with injuries. Mings, McGinn, Ollie, Sanson, Bailey not starting. Since promotion Mings and McGinn hardly missed a game never mind together Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted April 26, 2022 Moderator Share Posted April 26, 2022 1 hour ago, barry'sboots said: I can't believe that there are some on here who want to discard SJM. You only have to look at his Scotland form to see that there is a real player there when deployed in a way that suits his game. I think our problem is we have too many attacking midfielders. McGinn? A number 10, Ramsey, 8, Buendia, 10, Luiz, 8, Coutinho, 10, Bailey, 10, Sanson, 8, Chukwuemeka, 10, Traore, 10. That leaves Nakamba the only actual 6 and Iroegbunam is more box to box and starts in the 6 position at u23 but not sure where he'll migrate to with the seniors. The above gives an extra problem when your preferred formation is 433 or a variant of that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted April 26, 2022 Moderator Share Posted April 26, 2022 5 minutes ago, Zatman said: That spine is terrifying for a Premier League game. Luiz had to return early for this game from his holidays Shows what last management had to deal with injuries. Mings, McGinn, Ollie, Sanson, Bailey not starting. Since promotion Mings and McGinn hardly missed a game never mind together I can tell you the Brentford game is literally the only game this season where both Mings & McGinn were missing at the same time. They've missed 3 starts apiece. I knew my player combo spreadsheet would come in useful sooner or later. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted April 26, 2022 Share Posted April 26, 2022 Think I will scream if I read one more time we are trying to play like Liverpool We play nothing like them, they press high we dont. The play widemen we dont. We play a No. 10 they dont 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delphinho123 Posted April 26, 2022 Share Posted April 26, 2022 On 24/04/2022 at 21:53, Tomaszk said: I'm very concerned about the quality of coaching. Beale talk was all positive before he arrived. We are exactly where we were when they came in performance wise. I thought it was much more of a 433 yesterday, which is a step in the right direction. Any direction away from everyone in the middle of the pitch is a good move. If it isn't working you don't just press on, sleepwalking into a relegation battle, you must attempt something different. Everything else was still crap, but there was an attempt. There was an attempt at pressing but the whole team behind the forwards was about 30 yards too deep. You really aren't impressed with Villa atm are you, @Tomaszk! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Condimentalist Posted April 26, 2022 Share Posted April 26, 2022 28 minutes ago, Zatman said: That spine is terrifying for a Premier League game. Luiz had to return early for this game from his holidays Shows what last management had to deal with injuries. Mings, McGinn, Ollie, Sanson, Bailey not starting. Since promotion Mings and McGinn hardly missed a game never mind together And people winder why Deano got off to a poor start... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaVilla Posted April 26, 2022 Author Share Posted April 26, 2022 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Zatman said: Think I will scream if I read one more time we are trying to play like Liverpool We play nothing like them, they press high we dont. The play widemen we dont. We play a No. 10 they dont we are trying to play like liverpool....... Edited April 26, 2022 by MaVilla 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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