Formula One - 2021

[Djemba_Villan]

43 minutes ago, Lichfield Dean said:

Yes but if the crash had happened a lap or two earlier and there had been time for normal safety car procedures then we'd still have had Max on new tyres behind Lewis on old tyres at a restart with one or two laps remaining. That is a perfectly normal situation. I don't really buy into this argument that Max was well beaten by so many seconds, because safety cars always mess up big leads, that's just the luck of the draw.

The only issue is that in this particular case the race should have finished under safety car conditions.

Agree. Also surely the red flag option results in Max having 5 laps to overtake Lewis anyway…with his tire advantage. 

[Djemba_Villan]

An irony I joked about during the race that weirdly happened is that it was Mick Schumacher that caused the crash leading to Lewis not breaking his Dad’s number of title record.

I was joking that this would be Horner’s Plan B/C at the time. Just imagine…

[YouUnastanFren]

7 minutes ago, Djemba_Villan said:

Agree. Also surely the red flag option results in Max having 5 laps to overtake Lewis anyway…with his tire advantage. 

No tyre advantage if there's a red flag. HAM is then free to change tyres. We'd have had a straight 5 lap shoot out on new tyres for the championship. That was the best option.

Edited December 13, 2021 by YouUnastanFren

[bcarpet]

3 minutes ago, Djemba_Villan said:

Agree. Also surely the red flag option results in Max having 5 laps to overtake Lewis anyway…with his tire advantage. 

I thought they could change tyres under red flag conditions?

[Lichfield Dean]

22 minutes ago, sidcow said:

But if the rules were that this WAS the normal procedure and the last lap would be raced, Mercedes would have also brought Lewis in to change his tyres.  He would still have come out ahead of Max because of his 15 second lead and also had the fresh tyres.

Max had nothing to lose, he was never going to catch up so he changed tyres.  Equally if those were the normal rules Lewis would have used his 14 seconds to change but Max actually might not have gone in because then he WOULD have had something to lose, He would probably have actually been ahead of Lewis then but with himself on older tyre.  Not attractive but still better than the absolutely no way to win situation he had before.

So by doing what happened they changed the situation from one guaranteed winner who has attained that by winning 99% of the race and replaced him with a guaranteed winner who artificially attained that ion 1% of the race and entirely on their choice.

This is the crux of it though, Max may have stayed out and would have had track position and may not have been overtaken. Or they may both have come in and Max may still have overtaken. Who knows?

My point is that the safety car itself affects the results of races all the time, and a lot of people have jumped on it saying it isn't fair that someone with a big lead loses out because of one. Well it happens all the time. Yes, in this case they screwed everything up massively with that stupid call to let half the cars unlap themselves, but the statement that it's unfair that Max won because Lewis had a big lead should surely be applied to all other races where big leads have been lost due to safety cars. 

Anyway, it's all supposition. The call to restart the race was wrong and it shouldn't have happened in this case, and the race director needs to own that decision.

[sidcow]

12 minutes ago, Lichfield Dean said:

My point is that the safety car itself affects the results of races all the time, and a lot of people have jumped on it saying it isn't fair that someone with a big lead loses out because of one. Well it happens all the time.

Yes, and it's unfair all the time too.   I think they should try and do something about it.  I'm sure in the days of DRS etc they can find a way of somehow limiting the cars till at least a semblance of the correct gap is reinstated.

[YouUnastanFren]

Just now, sidcow said:

Yes, and it's unfair all the time too.   I think they should try and do something about it.  I'm sure in the days of DRS etc they can find a way of somehow limiting the cars till at least a semblance of the correct gap is reinstated.

Red flag and then staggered time trial style release from the grid. The main problem would be that tyres of back markers would get cold and lapped cars would be in the way on the grid at the end of the first lap. Maybe doing it from the pit would be better.

[Stevo985]

1 hour ago, Lichfield Dean said:

Yes but if the crash had happened a lap or two earlier and there had been time for normal safety car procedures then we'd still have had Max on new tyres behind Lewis on old tyres at a restart with one or two laps remaining. That is a perfectly normal situation. I don't really buy into this argument that Max was well beaten by so many seconds, because safety cars always mess up big leads, that's just the luck of the draw.

The only issue is that in this particular case the race should have finished under safety car conditions.

But in that situation Mercedes would have pitted Lewis as well.

The reason they didn't was because they knew there wasn't enough time to clear the incident, unlap the backmarkers and restart the race. Plus Red Bull would have left max out (at that stage they were just doing the opposite of Hamilton) so he would have had track position and would have won if the race ended under a safety car. There was just no way it was worth that risk for Lewis.

With more laps left Mercedes would have taken that risk knowing that they would have either had Lewis behind Max on better tyres with enough laps to get past, or they'd have Lewis in the lead with Max right behind him BUT both now on the same tyres.

 

Mercedes actually made exactly the right call based on the regulations, and Masi changing the regulations to something he invented screwed them

[OutByEaster?]

I don't think it was a sporting corruption, this wasn't done to help one or the other team - this was the people at the very top of the sport telling the race director they wanted a big finish to their perfect TV season.

It was entertainment triumphing over sport, a confession that this is a TV show not a contest.

F1 is a reality TV show based around the characters from Drive to Survive.

[Stevo985]

55 minutes ago, Lichfield Dean said:

This is the crux of it though, Max may have stayed out and would have had track position and may not have been overtaken. Or they may both have come in and Max may still have overtaken. Who knows?

My point is that the safety car itself affects the results of races all the time, and a lot of people have jumped on it saying it isn't fair that someone with a big lead loses out because of one. Well it happens all the time. Yes, in this case they screwed everything up massively with that stupid call to let half the cars unlap themselves, but the statement that it's unfair that Max won because Lewis had a big lead should surely be applied to all other races where big leads have been lost due to safety cars. 

 

The point is this:

8 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

Mercedes actually made exactly the right call based on the regulations, and Masi changing the regulations to something he invented screwed them

You say it happens all the time, but it doesn't. Safety cars happen all the time, and Mercedes actually made exactly the right decision based on what normally happens under the safety car.

A safety car where they only let the lapped cars between 1st and 2nd place unlap themselves and then don't leave enough time for them to rejoin the back of the pack AND start the race a lap early doesn't happen all the time. It never happens, because it literally isn't in the rules.

 

If the safety car had happened 5 laps earlier, and the usual regularions were followed, Lewis didn't change his tyres, and then Max overtook him and won, then literally nobody would be complaining. Because you're right, safety cars happen all the time. The injustice is the race director taking it upon himself to change the regulations at the last minute which completely changed the race.

It would be like a football team putting 3 defenders on in the last minute to defend a draw in the FA cup so they could play again in the replay, and then the ref saying "no actually this match is decided on away goals so you've lost"

You can't say "Well away goals happen all the time". They do, but not in that way.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Stevo985

[mykeyb]

2 hours ago, sidcow said:

Oh come on.  He was 14 seconds behind with 4 laps left.  He was WELL beaten and deep down he knows it.

Doesn't matter how far he was in front a safety car means the field bunches up and you know it.

Just for clarity please tell me what Red Bull or Mercedes did yesterday which can be classified as cheating which is the point I made.

[mykeyb]

2 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

I'm not a Lewis fan but that's hardly a fair outcome either.

I don't think they should overturn the result anyway. The end of the race was a farce but it's done now. 

Masi should go though

The thing is there isn't a fair way to decide it now is there. Max did nothing wrong, Lewis did nothing wrong. I would be astounded if the courts overturned the result as then Red Bull will be launching their own appeal. 

I suspect that Mercedes will do a deal in the background involving money and the result will stand.

[bickster]

4 minutes ago, mykeyb said:

Doesn't matter how far he was in front a safety car means the field bunches up and you know it.

Just for clarity please tell me what Red Bull or Mercedes did yesterday which can be classified as cheating which is the point I made.

What happened yesterday is the equivalent of the referee in football awarding a penalty against a team because one of the players has a bad haircut

[Stevo985]

Just now, mykeyb said:

The thing is there isn't a fair way to decide it now is there. Max did nothing wrong, Lewis did nothing wrong. I would be astounded if the courts overturned the result as then Red Bull will be launching their own appeal. 

I suspect that Mercedes will do a deal in the background involving money and the result will stand.

That's why I don't think they should overturn it. The damage is done, and in many ways overturning it now would turn it into even more of a farce that it already looks

[sidcow]

11 minutes ago, mykeyb said:

Doesn't matter how far he was in front a safety car means the field bunches up and you know it.

Just for clarity please tell me what Red Bull or Mercedes did yesterday which can be classified as cheating which is the point I made.

I've made it perfectly clear the did nothing wrong. 

[AndyClarke]

1 hour ago, Lichfield Dean said:

This is the crux of it though, Max may have stayed out and would have had track position and may not have been overtaken. Or they may both have come in and Max may still have overtaken. Who knows?

My point is that the safety car itself affects the results of races all the time, and a lot of people have jumped on it saying it isn't fair that someone with a big lead loses out because of one. Well it happens all the time. Yes, in this case they screwed everything up massively with that stupid call to let half the cars unlap themselves, but the statement that it's unfair that Max won because Lewis had a big lead should surely be applied to all other races where big leads have been lost due to safety cars. 

Anyway, it's all supposition. The call to restart the race was wrong and it shouldn't have happened in this case, and the race director needs to own that decision.

I think the point is that if they had correctly applied the rules and coasted over the line behind the safety car then nobody could have any complaints on the result.

[mykeyb]

17 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

That's why I don't think they should overturn it. The damage is done, and in many ways overturning it now would turn it into even more of a farce that it already looks

Have to agree with you

[sidcow]

You didn't even need to be a top top of the game highly paid race stratagist to see Lewis had won immediately the crash happened. The commentators all called it straight away. 

Not in a million years should Mercedes have risked a pitstop, they had absolutely no reason to do so. 

It's jusk bonkers and has made a complete mockery of the "sport" 

[Stevo985]

Just now, sidcow said:

Not in a million years should Mercedes have risked a pitstop, they had absolutely no reason to do so. 

Exactly. This is the main point. 5 or 10 laps earlier and they 100% would have pitted him. Worst case scenario then is they lose track position to Max but they're in a faster car with fresher tyres and they'd easily overtake again.

They made the right call in the context of the race. Masi completely changed the context of the race with no warning

[Genie]

As soon as the accident happened the commentators on 5 live said that’s it, Lewis is champion, it’ll finish behind the safety car.

Bit naive of them to think normal rules would apply.