Transgenderism

[CVByrne]

3 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

As an aside, the average lead time for a first appointment for a gender identity clinic is currently over 3 years. People simply aren't rushing through this process.

Which is clearly an issue.

My view is the mental health of young people is important and I think having consulted medical professionals it is important for anyone who isn't legally an adult in making such big life decisions like changing you gender. 

[chrisp65]

A person I know has been given a waiting time of 4 years before their first appointment.

In the meantime they’ve been advised (by the doctor) to have photographic proof that for at least 12 months prior to that appointment they’ve lived with a haircut typical of the gender they believe they are. I mean, really? Part of the medical assessment is boys have short hair girls have long hair? That doesn’t really bode well for the interview does it?

 

 

[Davkaus]

6 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

A person I know has been given a waiting time of 4 years before their first appointment.

In the meantime they’ve been advised (by the doctor) to have photographic proof that for at least 12 months prior to that appointment they’ve lived with a haircut typical of the gender they believe they are. I mean, really? Part of the medical assessment is boys have short hair girls have long hair? That doesn’t really bode well for the interview does it?

 

 

Was this their GP or one of the specialists at a clinic? 

GPs are honestly an absolute waste of time for almost everything so I have absolute confidence they'll be a useless impediment for this kind of process as well. I'd hope the specialists are a bit less out of touch...What next "please provide evidence that you wear pink at least 3 times a week"

[chrisp65]

5 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

Was this their GP or one of the specialists at a clinic? 

GPs are honestly an absolute waste of time for almost everything so I have absolute confidence they'll be a useless impediment for this kind of process as well. I'd hope the specialists are a bit less out of touch...What next "please provide evidence that you wear pink at least 3 times a week"

Yeah, it was the GP, they had to go through the GP to get on the waiting list. I’ve also suggested this is advice that can be ignored. You would imagine a GP would have a little more about them.

[CVByrne]

2 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

A person I know has been given a waiting time of 4 years before their first appointment.

In the meantime they’ve been advised (by the doctor) to have photographic proof that for at least 12 months prior to that appointment they’ve lived with a haircut typical of the gender they believe they are. I mean, really? Part of the medical assessment is boys have short hair girls have long hair? That doesn’t really bode well for the interview does it?

These types of anecdotal stories say more about the state of our under funded NHS than anything. The solution is fixing the system so we don't have ridiculous waiting times like this. 

Also living as the desired gender is part of the evidence required to change gender. So I assume makeup and long hair are probably common evidence presented as this required evidence.

*I really don't know what the evidence of three months living as the desired gender entails tbh. I'm just making total educated guesses/assumptions above.*

[chrisp65]

9 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

These types of anecdotal stories say more about the state of our under funded NHS than anything. The solution is fixing the system so we don't have ridiculous waiting times like this. 

Also living as the desired gender is part of the evidence required to change gender. So I assume makeup and long hair are probably common evidence presented as this required evidence.

*I really don't know what the evidence of three months living as the desired gender entails tbh. I'm just making total educated guesses/assumptions above.*

I’m not sure long hair and make up have meant anything very much since about 1965.

Fixing the system absolutely is the answer yes, but that doesn’t feel likely in any sort of short or medium term. Perhaps when its taking 24 hours to get an ambulance to a pensioner, it’s time to have other routes for gender recognition. Self certification would be an obvious and easy start. Feels like the sort of thing you should be able to do around the same time you can leave school, get a job, get scooter lessons, vote, even sign up for the army. 

[GeorgeVilla82]

I’m a bit reluctant to post this because it’s such a tricky area and well-intentioned words can get misconstrued. However, as someone earlier up the thread said, there aren’t any women’s views on here at the moment. For context, I’m a 40 year old woman, married with 2 children, lived in Birmingham until my late 20s then moved to London for work. 
 

Like most of my 30/40 something friends, I don’t have any problem at all with trans women who just want to get on living their lives without discrimination or hassle. Most women live their lives wanting the same thing and the thing we have in common is usually (not always) the discrimination and hassle comes from men. So we get it. 
 

However, a lot of women (again, I can only speak for me and people I know - but I suspect our experience is common) have spent a fair part of our lives being wary - again, usually but not always - of men. From being followed home, having unsolicited comments made about how you look, having someone get far too close and in your personal space - all relatively frequent occurrences when younger, and usually the perpetrator was a man. I’m lucky to have not experienced any serious sexual assault (minor, yes, but serious, no) but I can imagine how traumatised this can make people feel. It brings about a general wariness of being around men in vulnerable situations, particularly given the relative difference in size and strength. 
 

So I have sympathy with the desire for spaces where cis women (I don’t really like that term) are vulnerable - respite centres, domestic violence refuges, prisons - to be female sex only for the welfare and mental health of those women. To be clear, that’s not to say that trans women can’t be in a similarly vulnerable position themselves, of course they can and frequently are, but I’m not sure that the rights of cis women should be overridden in those circumstances. Trans women should have their own protected spaces where they can feel safe, but not at the expense of cis women. It would be great if everyone could feel safe - it shouldn’t be one vs the other. I also want to make absolutely clear that I hate the way that some on the extreme feminist side seem to infer that trans women are a risk to women - that’s obviously rubbish. Predatory men are a risk to women. 
 

I think one of the reasons that some women feel so aggrieved by this is that some of the most vocal opponents to the feminists’ views are from men. Being aggressively shouted down by a man who has no skin in the game (sorry, probably a bad choice of words!) is a prime example of the misogyny that women have experienced since time immortal. So it feels that women’s rights are again taking a back seat to the preferences of men (not trans women, men). 
 

I probably won’t post again on this as I’m not really interested in getting into a heated debate about it all. I’m a relatively educated person, I’ve read a lot on this, talked to a wide group of friends and tend to be fairly liberal in my views. But it can get very toxic and I have no interest in getting into an internet spat. But I hope my views have been interesting to those who wanted to hear from a woman (and not holding myself as being representative of anyone else). 

Edited January 29, 2023 by GeorgeVilla82
Typo

[Davkaus]

37 minutes ago, GeorgeVilla82 said:

But it can get very toxic and I have no interest in getting into an internet spat. But I hope my views have been interesting to those who wanted to hear from a woman (and not holding myself as being representative of anyone else). 

I've got to give VT it's due on this one, it's probably because most of us, to steal your words, have no skin in the game, but it's the one place I've seen this being discussed with disagreements without it rather quickly descending into outright abuse. 

I reckon if enough of us middle aged blokes get our heads together we can probably set things straight...  

Edited January 29, 2023 by Davkaus

[Demitri_C]

Quote

 

Brit Awards: All Saints' Shaznay Lewis questions all-male best artist category

Singer Shaznay Lewis has said it "does not feel right that female artists have suffered" as a result of category changes at the Brit Awards.

Best male and best female have been merged into one best artist category to allow non-binary acts to compete.

However, the shortlist for this year's best artist prize is all-male.

Lewis, who won two Brits as a member of All Saints, welcomed the awards body's intentions, but said: "Progressive ideas should benefit everyone."

Writing in the Radio Times, she said: "How can that be the case if we do not acknowledge female artists, who are symbols of empowerment to millions of young aspiring women?"

The singer and songwriter described the category change as a "welcome and wonderful step" for recognising talent regardless of an artist's gender.

However, she continued: "If the Brits are meant to be accolades for all, how can we persist with a category that this year has excluded half of the population, women? I'm hoping it won't be the case in 2024."

Harry Styles, who won record of the year at Sunday's Grammys, is the favourite to win artist of the year at the Brits

Adele was the first winner of the newly-titled artist of the year category in 2022, following the release of her fourth album 30.

She said in her acceptance speech: "I understand why the name of this award has changed but I really love being a woman and being a female artist. I'm really proud of us."

This year, the best artist nominees are Fred Again, Central Cee, George Ezra, Stormzy and Harry Styles.

Why are no women up for the Brit Award for best artist?

Harry Styles and Wet Leg lead Brits nominations

Female artists such as Charli XCX and Florence + The Machine missed out, although acts like Wet Leg, Nova Twins and Cat Burns are recognised in other categories.

Lewis said: "Women, predictably, have suffered as a result [of merging the categories]. It does not feel right."

She questioned why women faced being "disregarded and excluded", and asked whether it was because female artists were not seen as "equally bankable" by the music industry.

Adele said she "loved being a female artist" when she accepted the first artist of the year prize last year

Brits organisers said the changes were made because "it was time to progress to judging artists solely on the quality and popularity of their work, rather than on who they are, or how they choose to identify".

They said 42% of nominations this year featured women, but that a key factor behind the best artist shortlist was "unfortunately, there were relatively few commercially successful releases by women in 2022 compared to those by men".

A statement on Monday added: "We recognise this points to wider issues around the representation of women in music that must also be addressed."

Organisers carry out an annual review of the awards, they said, adding that they would examine the artist of the year question after this year's ceremony on Saturday.

"We are wholeheartedly committed to a considered review of the categories over the immediate months following this year's event, and this will include industry consultation and discussion, in line with what we instigated over the past five years, with any conclusions and actions made ahead of the 2024 event."

All Saints at the Brit Awards '98 (Left to right: Melanie Blatt, Nicole and Natalie Appleton, Shaznay Lewis)

However, they suggested more time may be needed to assess whether women are at a disadvantage.

The statement said: "We believe that any changes made to award categories should be carefully evaluated over time. Last year Adele was voted the inaugural AOTY, and women triumphed in 10 out of the 15 categories."

All Saints won best single and best video for their hit Never Ever at the Brit Awards in 1998.

Both categories were gender neutral and saw the girl group compete against male acts such as Elton John, Blur, Radiohead, Oasis and David Bowie.

However, the existence of gendered categories that year meant there were other guaranteed female winners, with Shola Ama winning best British female solo artist and Bjork winning best international female.

Lewis said the group were hugely proud of their accomplishment, writing: "We played a major part in ensuring that the Brits was a space for women to thrive. Is that still the case?"

The two awards won by All Saints were voted for by the public - but most of the winners and nominees at the ceremony are chosen by the Brits Voting Academy, which is made up of about 1,200 members.

 

Clicky

[juanpabloangel18]

Great post GeorgeVilla82, thanks for sharing. I had a couple of comments based on my layman's understanding of trans rights issues

"Cis" & "Trans" both come from Latin. Cis is the preposition "on this side of". We use other prepositions all the time without controversy, for example, heterosexual vs. homosexual. Unfortunately a lot of the same arguments people are now saying about using the term 'cisgender' to describe a person whose gender identity corresponds with the sex registered for them at birth, homophobes back in the day were saying about using the term 'homosexual' when there was more moral panic about gay people. I think most people would agree common usage of the term 'heterosexual' today hasn't impacted the rights of straight people.

Another point I wanted to add which I'm sure has been discussed, is the fact that trans people are around four times as likely to be assaulted than their cis counterparts. I think it's worth remembering this when we talk about safety (the problem is men not trans people).

[foreveryoung]

26 minutes ago, juanpabloangel18 said:

Great post GeorgeVilla82, thanks for sharing. I had a couple of comments based on my layman's understanding of trans rights issues

"Cis" & "Trans" both come from Latin. Cis is the preposition "on this side of". We use other prepositions all the time without controversy, for example, heterosexual vs. homosexual. Unfortunately a lot of the same arguments people are now saying about using the term 'cisgender' to describe a person whose gender identity corresponds with the sex registered for them at birth, homophobes back in the day were saying about using the term 'homosexual' when there was more moral panic about gay people. I think most people would agree common usage of the term 'heterosexual' today hasn't impacted the rights of straight people.

Another point I wanted to add which I'm sure has been discussed, is the fact that trans people are around four times as likely to be assaulted than their cis counterparts. I think it's worth remembering this when we talk about safety (the problem is men not trans people).

The problem is not men at all. The problem is society.

If you said women are the problem, you would be cained, so please be careful blaming men for everything.

[bobzy]

1 hour ago, foreveryoung said:

The problem is not men at all. The problem is society.

If you said women are the problem, you would be cained, so please be careful blaming men for everything.

Men are the worst though, to be fair.

[Demitri_C]

2 minutes ago, bobzy said:

Men are the worst though, to be fair.

I think he has a point its society not just men

[bobzy]

1 minute ago, Demitri_C said:

I think he has a point its society not just men

It's mostly men, though.

If you look at most horrific things that happen, it's men.  Sure, that's all "societal" and I imagine there'll be some deep reasoning behind why it's the case... but still, men.

I mean, just a quick glance at the BBC News main page right now:
"Teacher and daughter shot by husband, police believe"
"Serial rapist Carrick jailed for at least 30 years"
"Dad guilty of disabled daughter's manslaughter"
"Men jailed for knifepoint robbery of Cavendish's home"

(Link: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news)

Men.

[Demitri_C]

12 minutes ago, bobzy said:

It's mostly men, though.

If you look at most horrific things that happen, it's men.  Sure, that's all "societal" and I imagine there'll be some deep reasoning behind why it's the case... but still, men.

I mean, just a quick glance at the BBC News main page right now:
"Teacher and daughter shot by husband, police believe"
"Serial rapist Carrick jailed for at least 30 years"
"Dad guilty of disabled daughter's manslaughter"
"Men jailed for knifepoint robbery of Cavendish's home"

(Link: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news)

Men.

The point i was highlighting though its not just men. 

[Seat68]

I am not going to quote the huge amount of studies and evidence as people can google that shit, but overwhelmingly violence is perpetrated by men, regardless of the victim, its men. But mmmmm not all men. Of course its not all men, and when is international mens day. Pffffft.

[bobzy]

9 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

The point i was highlighting though its not just men. 

It's **** obvious it's not solely men.

[Demitri_C]

5 minutes ago, bobzy said:

It's **** obvious it's not solely men.

Calm down dear

[StefanAVFC]

All lives matter 

[HKP90]

On 29/01/2023 at 21:27, GeorgeVilla82 said:

I’m a bit reluctant to post this because it’s such a tricky area and well-intentioned words can get misconstrued. However, as someone earlier up the thread said, there aren’t any women’s views on here at the moment. For context, I’m a 40 year old woman, married with 2 children, lived in Birmingham until my late 20s then moved to London for work. 
 

Like most of my 30/40 something friends, I don’t have any problem at all with trans women who just want to get on living their lives without discrimination or hassle. Most women live their lives wanting the same thing and the thing we have in common is usually (not always) the discrimination and hassle comes from men. So we get it. 
 

However, a lot of women (again, I can only speak for me and people I know - but I suspect our experience is common) have spent a fair part of our lives being wary - again, usually but not always - of men. From being followed home, having unsolicited comments made about how you look, having someone get far too close and in your personal space - all relatively frequent occurrences when younger, and usually the perpetrator was a man. I’m lucky to have not experienced any serious sexual assault (minor, yes, but serious, no) but I can imagine how traumatised this can make people feel. It brings about a general wariness of being around men in vulnerable situations, particularly given the relative difference in size and strength. 
 

So I have sympathy with the desire for spaces where cis women (I don’t really like that term) are vulnerable - respite centres, domestic violence refuges, prisons - to be female sex only for the welfare and mental health of those women. To be clear, that’s not to say that trans women can’t be in a similarly vulnerable position themselves, of course they can and frequently are, but I’m not sure that the rights of cis women should be overridden in those circumstances. Trans women should have their own protected spaces where they can feel safe, but not at the expense of cis women. It would be great if everyone could feel safe - it shouldn’t be one vs the other. I also want to make absolutely clear that I hate the way that some on the extreme feminist side seem to infer that trans women are a risk to women - that’s obviously rubbish. Predatory men are a risk to women. 
 

I think one of the reasons that some women feel so aggrieved by this is that some of the most vocal opponents to the feminists’ views are from men. Being aggressively shouted down by a man who has no skin in the game (sorry, probably a bad choice of words!) is a prime example of the misogyny that women have experienced since time immortal. So it feels that women’s rights are again taking a back seat to the preferences of men (not trans women, men). 
 

I probably won’t post again on this as I’m not really interested in getting into a heated debate about it all. I’m a relatively educated person, I’ve read a lot on this, talked to a wide group of friends and tend to be fairly liberal in my views. But it can get very toxic and I have no interest in getting into an internet spat. But I hope my views have been interesting to those who wanted to hear from a woman (and not holding myself as being representative of anyone else). 

This is exactly how my wife feels. 

I am going to be very honest here, because I feel that I really read the room wrong on this, and my wife became very hurt, which in turn made me feel awful. 

I have always been very liberal socially, and my instant reaction when she brought this up was to go liberal, and suggest that I feel solidarity for LGBTQ rights, in the same way I have always been extremely pro-womens rights and pro choice. I realise now that perhaps I was conflating all of these issues, the rights of individuals, if you will. 

What I did not get was the depth of feeling my wife had toward this issue. She felt, understandably, that the hard fought rights of women, and women's safe spaces were potentially threatened by the way society treats trans women. This is extremely hard for me as a (hopefully) enlightened man, who feels strongly that everyone- gay, straight, male, female should have equality of rights. I'm still not sure I understand how my feelings fit in with this subject, as I think that as well intentioned as I feel I am, I have entered into a conversation I am ill equipped to deal with. 

Perhaps as others have mentioned, this is a society level issue. Perhaps instead of allocating existing male and female spaces to trans women/men, we need new spaces. Perhaps this undermines the equality of the Trans community. Honestly I have no idea, and my instincts seem severely inappropriate. I would love some help on this, I just don't know how to feel.