The AVFC FFP thread

[Follyfoot]

19 hours ago, paul514 said:

I don't think our wage total has gone up since the end of last season.....

But I think it went up a hell of a lot on the same season before with new players and a bunch of new contracts.

Going forward I think our biggest problem buying players will be the wages.

Looking at the progress of the kids the chances are we won’t need to buy any for the next 10 years

[MWARLEY2]

1 hour ago, Follyfoot said:

Looking at the progress of the kids the chances are we won’t need to buy any for the next 10 years

Just extra spent on fruit shoots and pizza . 

[paul514]

7 hours ago, Follyfoot said:

Looking at the progress of the kids the chances are we won’t need to buy any for the next 10 years

It could save us quite a lot of money, however it must be remembered this kids have to be of high quality to really make it with us and that level of quality is going to need to raise as we do.

Honestly if 3 of all the much vaunted kids made it through to being in our top say 15 players it would be a storming success, the rest can be loaned/sold to recoup some money ala Chelsea, although that is going to be harder in the future as the loan rules are changing.

[peterw]

Difference is we wouldn't be following the Chelsea model where at any given time they have 30-40+ out on loan.

[paul514]

1 hour ago, peterw said:

Difference is we wouldn't be following the Chelsea model where at any given time they have 30-40+ out on loan.

The Chelsea model has served them really well, it’s in profit for a start has given them some really good players and let’s not forget if it wasn’t for their short termism on their managers they would have a few of the worlds best players there right now…… as well

[peterw]

I can see the business logic behind it, and on a smaller scale for us it would work as it would allow the Academy to pay for itself. On a football level I don't like it as it makes it harder for any youth players to break through (the Chelsea model) as they spend big on the starting 11 and there is no pathway unless you're already elite level.

[paul514]

20 hours ago, peterw said:

I can see the business logic behind it, and on a smaller scale for us it would work as it would allow the Academy to pay for itself. On a football level I don't like it as it makes it harder for any youth players to break through (the Chelsea model) as they spend big on the starting 11 and there is no pathway unless you're already elite level.

I'm not sure it will work in future, I can't remember the exact rules that are changing but I remember reading them and immediately thinking, well that's Chelsea's model gone.... 6 loans max rings a bell. Perhaps someone can confirm?

[peterw]

1 hour ago, paul514 said:

I'm not sure it will work in future, I can't remember the exact rules that are changing but I remember reading them and immediately thinking, well that's Chelsea's model gone.... 6 loans max rings a bell. Perhaps someone can confirm?

I doubt it would be as restrictive as only 6 loans. 

[CVByrne]

5 hours ago, paul514 said:

I'm not sure it will work in future, I can't remember the exact rules that are changing but I remember reading them and immediately thinking, well that's Chelsea's model gone.... 6 loans max rings a bell. Perhaps someone can confirm?

Max of 8 Loans internationally of players over 22. Loans for player development have no caps. Domestic Loans don't either (other than Prem's max 2 players rule).

It'll hit Chelsea and not us. We want to build a network with lower league clubs of sending players on Loan domestically. We will always manage the squad size with the aim to keep 20-22 first team players and 5/6 under 23s making up our squad. This serves the dual purpose of keeping wage bill down due to younger players commanding less wages than senior players (in terms of experience and age). Plus it shows the pathway for young players to come through at Villa. 

Next season I'd expect Carney, J Ramsey, A Ramsey, Archer, JPB and Kessler Hayden to be the 6 first team players from the u23s. Along with a 19/20 man senior squad. Possibly bigger if we make Europe

[VillaJ100]

What would be the consequences if we seriously said F FFP and spent what we liked? Points deductions? Relegation? Kicked out of league?

Surely with the weak ass punishments given out previosuly if they tried to throw the book at us we could get some billionaire calibre lawyers and sue them into the sun? We'd have a strong case as well

[Czarnikjak]

8 minutes ago, VillaJ100 said:

What would be the consequences if we seriously said F FFP and spent what we liked? Points deductions? Relegation? Kicked out of league?

Surely with the weak ass punishments given out previosuly if they tried to throw the book at us we could get some billionaire calibre lawyers and sue them into the sun? We'd have a strong case as well

Fines and points deductions are some of the forms of punishment available to Premier League.

The thing is, nobody in the history of Premier League was officially found to break their Profit and Sustainability rules, so it's hard to judge how hard they would go after us.

City are currently under investigation for possible historical breaches, will see if they are found guilty.

Everton almost certainly went over the limit last season and looks like they were told off. They couldn't sign anybody of value this summer and had to offload players due to FFP.

Bigger problem is, if you said f to ffp, you wouldn't be allowed into European Competitions by UEFA, which defeats the whole purpose of spending big in the first place.

Edited September 29, 2021 by Czarnikjak

[MrBlack]

25 minutes ago, Czarnikjak said:

Fines and points deductions are some of the forms of punishment available to Premier League.

The thing is, nobody in the history of Premier League was officially found to break their Profit and Sustainability rules, so it's hard to judge how hard they would go after us.

City are currently under investigation for possible historical breaches, will see if they are found guilty.

Everton almost certainly went over the limit last season and looks like they were told off. They couldn't sign anybody of value this summer and had to offload players due to FFP.

Bigger problem is, if you said f to ffp, you wouldn't be allowed into European Competitions by UEFA, which defeats the whole purpose of spending big in the first place.

Gone suspiciously quiet on the man City case, since it was proved they had received money from a government entity rather than the company they were actually sponsored by.

Wouldn't surprise me at all if they get away with it completely. 

[OutByEaster?]

35 minutes ago, Czarnikjak said:

Bigger problem is, if you said f to ffp, you wouldn't be allowed into European Competitions by UEFA, which defeats the whole purpose of spending big in the first place.

If you buy the players that TV viewers want to see, the powers that be will make sure those players are in the show. I think the rules will always be secondary to that.

Be interesting to see what happens if Newcastle win their case - the Saudi's won't be in it to struggle with rules on how much they can invest.

 

[Sulberto21]

45 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

If you buy the players that TV viewers want to see, the powers that be will make sure those players are in the show. I think the rules will always be secondary to that.

Be interesting to see what happens if Newcastle win their case - the Saudi's won't be in it to struggle with rules on how much they can invest.

 

They'll just buy UEFA, FIFA, The Premier League etc etc etc.

[paul514]

On 29/09/2021 at 08:14, CVByrne said:

Max of 8 Loans internationally of players over 22. Loans for player development have no caps. Domestic Loans don't either (other than Prem's max 2 players rule).

It'll hit Chelsea and not us. We want to build a network with lower league clubs of sending players on Loan domestically. We will always manage the squad size with the aim to keep 20-22 first team players and 5/6 under 23s making up our squad. This serves the dual purpose of keeping wage bill down due to younger players commanding less wages than senior players (in terms of experience and age). Plus it shows the pathway for young players to come through at Villa. 

Next season I'd expect Carney, J Ramsey, A Ramsey, Archer, JPB and Kessler Hayden to be the 6 first team players from the u23s. Along with a 19/20 man senior squad. Possibly bigger if we make Europe

Thanks for that, I must have just seen 8 loans max originally, it shouldn't affect us too much then as the mix of the two could easily see 15 players on loan at once.

[Czarnikjak]

FFP won't be a huge block in the road for Saudis, initially at least :

 

and that's even without them artificially increasing NUFC commercial income, which will definetly happend via various naming and sponsorship deals.

[Digavilla]

With Toons new found wealth , it's important we qualify for Europe soon, as it will get tougher by the day. 

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

6 hours ago, Czarnikjak said:

FFP won't be a huge block in the road for Saudis, initially at least :

 

and that's even without them artificially increasing NUFC commercial income, which will definetly happend via various naming and sponsorship deals.

Saudi Airlines Arena for 500 mill over 5 years it is!

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

To be fair, wealth wise, we are still in a rather good position. Now, it's just down to being managed brilliantly.

The issue I will have, is if the pricked decide to start trying to poach our young players, for example.

Our model and trajectory further protects us from abject failure aside from that.

[hippo]

27 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

To be fair, wealth wise, we are still in a rather good position. Now, it's just down to being managed brilliantly.

The issue I will have, is if the pricked decide to start trying to poach our young players, for example.

Our model and trajectory further protects us from abject failure aside from that.

It's another hurdle to overcome. The real risk isn't Newcastle. The risk our owners get bored of hemorrhaging cash to finish around 6-10th.

Despite the academy kids, if we want to crack the top 4 we are going to need to invest significantly once again.