Ollie Watkins

[Vive_La_Villa]

2 minutes ago, nick76 said:

I'm not sure he is yet!  Taking the rose tinted glasses off after reviewing the last couple of years, would you pay big money for him?  He's in great form now with 6 in 7 games but looking at him over the last couple of years, you'd have to say no if you are honest with yourself.  If he continues this form or close to this form that he has now that he's being coached properly then it's a different story and that maybe in the summer to review by clubs.  I think clubs would want to see this form over a good stretch of time before blowing the money they would have to to buy from us.

I don’t think he is either. We are the right level for him which is why he ain’t going anywhere. 

But a lot around here would have told you he isn’t even good enough for us a few weeks ago. 

[nick76]

23 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I don’t think he is either. We are the right level for him which is why he ain’t going anywhere. 

But a lot around here would have told you he isn’t even good enough for us a few weeks ago. 

and I was probably one of those people and yes I am turning around but I'm far from 100%.  I think his form is brilliant at the moment but he needs to keep consistency and that doesnt mean scoring 6 every 7 games before somebody jumps in but he needs to continue to score consistently and provide assists.  He hasnt done that imo for the last couple of years and yes we can blame Gerrard and yes we can blame Ings and yes we can blame having a new baby, but none of that is here now.  He's free from all that and in this new beginning he has started really well, if he continues that then I will be delighted and will have turned my view around but I need more period of time seeing that from him to be completely turned around.  Form is temporary, Class is permanent.....he's currently in the 'Form' of that argument for me but has the ability to be in the second category, only (for me) will prove he can be catergorised in the second part with him doing it for longer.  I still think he may play better just off somebody.

Loving the way he is playing at the moment and long may it continue but I think it's unfair to criticise those who thought he might not be good enough for us a few weeks ago because he wasnt doing it and hadnt been doing it for a long time and I would put many of our players into that category and I still put that mostly down to Gerrard and his coaching team but the players need to stand up and many of them are.  You cant criticise fans though for thinking most of the players werent good enough including Ollie when two managers have been sacked and our performances for 18-24 months have been really poor... Emery has done wonders and we are now only seeing if some of these players are good players or not but 2 years of underperforming isnt going to be erased in just a few months to many fans, we need to see it for the rest of the season and more.  Of course at the ground we'll back the players 100% but we can discuss more on here in between the games, and discuss our reservations and it will take some fans longer to accept some players fully.

[Vive_La_Villa]

10 minutes ago, nick76 said:

and I was probably one of those people and yes I am turning around but I'm far from 100%.  I think his form is brilliant at the moment but he needs to keep consistency and that doesnt mean scoring 6 every 7 games before somebody jumps in but he needs to continue to score consistently and provide assists.  He hasnt done that imo for the last couple of years and yes we can blame Gerrard and yes we can blame Ings and yes we can blame having a new baby, but none of that is here now.  He's free from all that and in this new beginning he has started really well, if he continues that then I will be delighted and will have turned my view around but I need more period of time seeing that from him to be completely turned around.  Form is temporary, Class is permanent.....he's currently in the 'Form' of that argument for me but has the ability to be in the second category, only (for me) will prove he can be catergorised in the second part with him doing it for longer.  I still think he may play better just off somebody.

Loving the way he is playing at the moment and long may it continue but I think it's unfair to criticise those who thought he might not be good enough for us a few weeks ago because he wasnt doing it and hadnt been doing it for a long time and I would put many of our players into that category and I still put that mostly down to Gerrard and his coaching team but the players need to stand up and many of them are.  You cant criticise fans though for thinking most of the players werent good enough including Ollie when two managers have been sacked and our performances for 18-24 months have been really poor... Emery has done wonders and we are now only seeing if some of these players are good players or not but 2 years of underperforming isnt going to be erased in just a few months to many fans, we need to see it for the rest of the season and more.  Of course at the ground we'll back the players 100% but we can discuss more on here in between the games, and discuss our reservations and it will take some fans longer to accept some players fully.

All fair but I do think fans are very quick to turn on certain players. Yes Ollie had a bad run of form as did most players but in that time and from his first season we had all seen enough to know he is more than capable.  I just think people have short memories and are very quick to write off players.  
 

Starting to see it for Ramsey now.  Mings had his time too. 

[nick76]

52 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

All fair but I do think fans are very quick to turn on certain players. Yes Ollie had a bad run of form as did most players but in that time and from his first season we had all seen enough to know he is more than capable.  I just think people have short memories and are very quick to write off players.  
 

Starting to see it for Ramsey now.  Mings had his time too. 

I dont think it's certain players, it's all players that fans turn on.  Ollie hasnt had a bad run of form, I think that is disingenuous slightly, I think he had a long period of underperformance.  He played so well when he came to Villa, he looked like he could really kick on and his partnership with Grealish was brilliant. 

We always knew that his first touch and finishing skills was more than offset by his workrate and pressing but he tailed off when Grealish left, Ings came in, Smith left and he had a baby.  Ollie has to be confident, on form and scoring to be a top 10 striker in my opinion and when he is, he's brilliant but when he's not, the debate on this forum is whether his workrate is sufficient to cover the other deficiencies and as we know before December/January that people fell on either side of that discussion and it got very heated in this thread.

So he started his career very well at Villa, then had the second phase of his career wasnt great and now his third phase is going extremely well...let's hope this third phase continues and it was a one step back to take two steps forward but I dont think his bad period could be put down to form, it was too long for that in my opinion.  I believe he is more than capable for us in our near term ambitions as long as his playing confidently and is on form.  In terms of the squad, I do worry that if his confidence drops again and he has a bad period of form, where do we look to for goals because he will have periods of that.  Our reliance then on Duran and maybe Archer for next season seems a big ask and yes we need more goals from elsewhere in the team but I think we need another forward to ease that pressure.

As for short memories re players, I think that is harsh...we got promoted and survived that following season.  We then played so well for half a season (the 55 point season) and faded badly second half of the season with a lot of these players and then had a bad next season under Smith and Gerrard, then started this season poorly.  We essentially had almost 2 years (basically 2 calendar years from January '21 until Emery came in at the end of Oct '22) of poor football before Emery came in with many of these players, so you can understand why so fans were writing off many of these players because they hadnt done it for so long.........so it wasnt a quick write off of players at all.

[Vive_La_Villa]

32 minutes ago, nick76 said:

I dont think it's certain players, it's all players that fans turn on.  Ollie hasnt had a bad run of form, I think that is disingenuous slightly, I think he had a long period of underperformance.  He played so well when he came to Villa, he looked like he could really kick on and his partnership with Grealish was brilliant. 

We always knew that his first touch and finishing skills was more than offset by his workrate and pressing but he tailed off when Grealish left, Ings came in, Smith left and he had a baby.  Ollie has to be confident, on form and scoring to be a top 10 striker in my opinion and when he is, he's brilliant but when he's not, the debate on this forum is whether his workrate is sufficient to cover the other deficiencies and as we know before December/January that people fell on either side of that discussion and it got very heated in this thread.

So he started his career very well at Villa, then had the second phase of his career wasnt great and now his third phase is going extremely well...let's hope this third phase continues and it was a one step back to take two steps forward but I dont think his bad period could be put down to form, it was too long for that in my opinion.  I believe he is more than capable for us in our near term ambitions as long as his playing confidently and is on form.  In terms of the squad, I do worry that if his confidence drops again and he has a bad period of form, where do we look to for goals because he will have periods of that.  Our reliance then on Duran and maybe Archer for next season seems a big ask and yes we need more goals from elsewhere in the team but I think we need another forward to ease that pressure.

As for short memories re players, I think that is harsh...we got promoted and survived that following season.  We then played so well for half a season (the 55 point season) and faded badly second half of the season with a lot of these players and then had a bad next season under Smith and Gerrard, then started this season poorly.  We essentially had almost 2 years (basically 2 calendar years from January '21 until Emery came in at the end of Oct '22) of poor football before Emery came in with many of these players, so you can understand why so fans were writing off many of these players because they hadnt done it for so long.........so it wasnt a quick write off of players at all.

Long period of underperformance yet 11 goals and 2 assist in 35 games which isn’t too bad at all for Premier League. 
 

We’ll have to agree to disagree on how bad he was.

[nick76]

2 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Long period of underperformance yet 11 goals and 2 assist in 35 games which isn’t too bad at all for Premier League. 
 

We’ll have to agree to disagree on how bad he was.

Hence my point explained in the prior comment of the discussion being split before December/January about Ollie.  Anyway, old discussion, let’s enjoy Ollie in current form and hope it continues.

[bobzy]

2 hours ago, nick76 said:

and I was probably one of those people and yes I am turning around but I'm far from 100%.  I think his form is brilliant at the moment but he needs to keep consistency and that doesnt mean scoring 6 every 7 games before somebody jumps in but he needs to continue to score consistently and provide assists.  He hasnt done that imo for the last couple of years and yes we can blame Gerrard and yes we can blame Ings and yes we can blame having a new baby, but none of that is here now. 

But he has done exactly that?

First season, 14 goals and 5 assists
Second season, 11 goals and 2 assists
This season, 9 goals and 4 assists

The thing that he largely is, is consistent.  The second season is a drop off from the first, but he also played about 400 fewer minutes of football (can't remember what this was due to).  His performances are incredibly consistent - which is why he's picked every single week as our first choice striker.

[nick76]

22 minutes ago, bobzy said:

But he has done exactly that?

First season, 14 goals and 5 assists
Second season, 11 goals and 2 assists
This season, 9 goals and 4 assists

The thing that he largely is, is consistent.  The second season is a drop off from the first, but he also played about 400 fewer minutes of football (can't remember what this was due to).  His performances are incredibly consistent - which is why he's picked every single week as our first choice striker.

Your point is valid re the goals last season to be fair so I’ll take that on board.  We can separately discuss assists.

I think it’s hard to argue though that Ollie was the same player last season as the first season.  I know some argue that’s because of Gerrard, some point to Ings coming in and/or having a baby…maybe a mixture of all and maybe he didn’t get the same level of service but last season he wasn’t the same was he? But that’s where the discussion has been on this thread.  It wasn’t Ollie is playing well vs not well, it was the argument whether it was him or other factors for a year.  

As for this season, I’ve said he’s playing brilliantly under Emery and the stats you provide above was looking woeful until 7 games ago and has since scored 6 and I think there maybe an assist or two.  

My point still remains he needs to continue to be consistent and this current Ollie reminds me of the first season of him and not last season or the beginning of this season.  As I’ve said I’ll take on board his goals last season more in my thoughts.

Anyway I’m trying to enjoy Ollie’s current form and getting sidetracked.  Can we just enjoy it now and forget about past or whether his a top 5 team type player.  He’s ours, scoring and playing very well and hopefully that continues.

[MWARLEY2]

Ollie season 1... used as an all action one up top centre forward and played virtually every single game. Deano used him heavily and didnt care about his workload as he is naturally fit and has huge stamina. He also had Grealish to create space and chances for him. 

Ollie Season 2 ... playing with Ings which never ever worked bar a couple of games. Probably impacted on his confidence a bit knowing he had a player he would be competing against for a place in the team at times. Still did ok despite the horrendous run in second half of the season with poor form throughout the team. Again used as an outlet to run around non stop

Ollie season 3   gerrards attritional football with no plan other than smack it away from goal and see if Watkins can do domething out of nothing quickly fell apart watkins devoid of confidence and form. 

Unai comes in and does the obvious. Stop running round so mucb so when u do get an opportunity to score you arent knackered.  And bingo it works. 

Never going to be the greatest technician on the planet but he does have a strikers instinct and with his energy being conserved and the patterns of play becoming more natural there is no reason he cannot match Toney  for goals over the coming season

[The Fun Factory]

2 hours ago, nick76 said:

 

So he started his career very well at Villa, then had the second phase of his career wasnt great and now his third phase is going extremely well...let's hope this third phase continues and it was a one step back to take two steps forward but I dont think his bad period could be put down to form, it was too long for that in my opinion.  

If you look at his numbers he is remarkably consistent. If he stays fit he will get you 10-15 goals a season. Over all of his clubs and different divisions  apart from his last season at Brentford he is about a 1 goal in 3 games man, along with a fair amount of assists. 

Edited March 15, 2023 by The Fun Factory

[Mr.Messy]

According to Wikipedia he was born in Torquay, my home town. So for this reason alone he is ace and can do no wrong.

Edited March 15, 2023 by Mr.Messy

[Rolta]

39 minutes ago, Mr.Messy said:

According to Wikipedia he was born in Torquay, my home town. So for this reason alone he is ace and can do no wrong.

I'm from Tiverton, and I also have a big soft spot for Ollie for his being from Devon as much as anything. Exeter City were the real local team for me, so it only compounds things further. I also think he's been a great signing and I rate him anyway.

[tomsky_11]

2 hours ago, bobzy said:

But he has done exactly that?

First season, 14 goals and 5 assists
Second season, 11 goals and 2 assists
This season, 9 goals and 4 assists

The thing that he largely is, is consistent.  The second season is a drop off from the first, but he also played about 400 fewer minutes of football (can't remember what this was due to).  His performances are incredibly consistent - which is why he's picked every single week as our first choice striker.

Ollie's PL performance by season and by manager.

[Zatman]

9 hours ago, nick76 said:

I'm not sure he is yet!  Taking the rose tinted glasses off after reviewing the last couple of years, would you pay big money for him?  He's in great form now with 6 in 7 games but looking at him over the last couple of years, you'd have to say no if you are honest with yourself.  If he continues this form or close to this form that he has now that he's being coached properly then it's a different story and that maybe in the summer to review by clubs.  I think clubs would want to see this form over a good stretch of time before blowing the money they would have to to buy from us.

But Chelsea dont have a striker and United are starting Wout Weghorst. He is also much better than Nunez at the moment

[The Fun Factory]

He will turn 28 this year so he if wants a move to a scum 6 club this summer would be the time. I don't think it will happen but obviously, as he is on good form he automatically gets talked about having his dream move and such nonsense.  Just hope he doesn't get picked in the England squad as that is always the start of it.

[nick76]

1 minute ago, Zatman said:

But Chelsea dont have a striker and United are starting Wout Weghorst. He is also much better than Nunez at the moment

and?

Nkunku has signed a pre contract with Chelsea and Man U had to scramble to get Ronaldo out and could only get Weghorst, they will be fishing in the big pond for a striker in the summer.  The fact these two have screwed up their transfer business doesn’t prove your point.  If you are going down that route of because they haven’t got a player, you could name 20+ players in PL that could the job.

As for the comparison to Nunez whose not long arrived in the PL compared to Ollie whose been in the league a few seasons now, Nunez ceiling is far higher than Ollie’s so that’s a cheap easy dig on him.  I don’t think it’ll be long before he beats Ollie in most things, he’s a very good player just adapting.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

25 minutes ago, Zatman said:

But Chelsea dont have a striker and United are starting Wout Weghorst. He is also much better than Nunez at the moment

Sorry mate can't agree on Nunez.

Yeah it's " funny " making compilations and memes about his chance misses etc but he's a very good player.

Skill, touch, speed and footballing intelligence superior to Ollie imo.

( Maybe not speed )

EDIT: Just realised you said " right now ". I guess based on goalscoring record you might be correct. However as an all round player not sure I can agree.

Edited March 15, 2023 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[Zatman]

18 minutes ago, nick76 said:

and?

Nkunku has signed a pre contract with Chelsea and Man U had to scramble to get Ronaldo out and could only get Weghorst, they will be fishing in the big pond for a striker in the summer.  The fact these two have screwed up their transfer business doesn’t prove your point.  If you are going down that route of because they haven’t got a player, you could name 20+ players in PL that could the job.

As for the comparison to Nunez whose not long arrived in the PL compared to Ollie whose been in the league a few seasons now, Nunez ceiling is far higher than Ollie’s so that’s a cheap easy dig on him.  I don’t think it’ll be long before he beats Ollie in most things, he’s a very good player just adapting.

Nkunku isnt a striker either

You said he wouldnt get into a top 6 team yet 2 of the Scum 6 he would start in

[nick76]

23 minutes ago, Zatman said:

Nkunku isnt a striker either

You said he wouldnt get into a top 6 team yet 2 of the Scum 6 he would start in

But so would many many other strikers in the PL, solely (and this is the poor argument you are presenting) because they don’t currently have a striker, so somebody is better than the nobody they currently have.  I don’t see Man U or Chelsea come knocking in the summer for Ollie.

[TRO]

I think Ollie is being more strategic in his positioning, lately.

At one stage I felt he was, kind of over working, in as much as trying to cover too much ground.

Last Night we saw a master class from Haaland of working between the posts....thats what he does.

I am not comparing Ollie with him, but I think Ollie will capitalise, from focussing on his positioning, between the posts.....even if that is further out too.

Ollie has always tended to drift to the wing, I think he will do well to limit that, and make his way to where the fish( opportunities) are, like Haaland.

Edited March 16, 2023 by TRO