Relegation thread

[TRO]

3 hours ago, VillaCas said:

Another straw man argument TRO, with a few of your standard truisms thrown in for good measure (progress is a form of success etc etc)

It's nonsense to say the people are "setting the bar at what we've achieved", nobody is "wallowing in self achievement" , nobody is "self satified"

We came up from 5th in the championship and had a 31 player turn-around. Its a fact that the majority of teams that come up via the playoffs go straight back down again, so myself and many other said at the start of the season that for this year we would be happy to finish 17th and survive.

Next season, if we retained the same squad I would hope for slightly better, if we recruit well then I hope we can be comfortably mid-table

I'm not plesed that we are limping, hopefully, to 17th position but I am realistic in my expectations for a fledgling squad, new to the toughest league in the world

As we've argued a number of times, my expectation was survival this year, yours was obviuoosly that we would do better than that - am I satified? Not really, 17th is not my ambition for the club but I am realistic enough to understand that "Rome was not buit in a day"!!

 

Its not a strawman anything, its my opinion of fan expectation.

but we have been like this for c 10 years...flirting with issues and calling it one of those things, no its not one of those things....its been poor on the whole.

If you find solace in the mitigation you claim, good for you.....I don't.

Tuesday night we played an Arsenal team awash with expensive signings, something I am told we can't compare ours with....they have just beat the leagues 2 top teams, confidence, could not be higher and they mustered 4 yellows to indicate their intensity.

The crux is....we made it difficult for Arsenal......something we have struggled to do all season, make it difficult for the opponent.

We won, because we found some form and stuck at it, we showed conviction and refused to be bullied for once......sure we are inconsistent and had we played like that for most of the season, we would have finished where i thought we would c 14/15th.

You say you are not pleased that we are limping to 17th, but at the same time, fail to make observations of why we have, only to blame the amount of new signings.....you accepted that from the get go, you said so yourself... that's flirting with relegation, in anyones language.

We have improved our defensive capability generally since lockdown.....that is management getting it right. I understand your claim of so many new players, but I don't buy that as the sole reason for our 21 defeats....I think it is accepting an excuse and I am not expecting you to agree, by the way.

I accept fans have varying degree's of expectation, and I also agree that it is their prerogative.....but those who have a low one, have no right to the moral high ground and anymore than those with a high one, might get frustrated.

Personally.....I will take the frustration and look to drive the team on.

Hope we can produce a similar Result and performance on Sunday.

UTV

Edited July 24, 2020 by TRO

[KenjiOgiwara]

This can really go either way.

I can easily see Watford being more up for it than arsenal. 

I can easily see the cherries fighting out a win. 

I can also easily see us losing. Hell, I can easily see all three teams losing. 

I hope we go into this match at the top of our game, but it's kinda funny how close this is. 

Should dig out the prediction thread from last year and see what was written at that point. 

[Enda]

5 hours ago, villalad21 said:

So let take a look at the starting eleven then:

----------------Heaton--------------------

Elmo---Konsa--Mings-----Targett

-------------------Luiz------------------------

-----------McGinn--Hourihane---------

Benrahma---Maupay--------Grealish

Bench:Steer, Hause, Guilbert, Whelan, El Ghazi, Adomah, Davis

This isn't an awful lot of signings is it?

This is a very strong starting eleven. We would have no problems whatsoever in staying up.

Seven of your starting eleven were not Aston Villa players at the end of last season.

[villalad21]

8 minutes ago, Enda said:

Seven of your starting eleven were not Aston Villa players at the end of last season.

I don't count Mings as a new signing.

Also Konsa and Maupay has played under him before. Has Benrahma too? And also they have experience playing English football. Would adapt quicker than a bunch of farmers from the Belgian league.

The point is we would have a far stronger team if we had focused on main targets rather than releasing 9 players and having to buying 13 players.

You can sugarcoat all you want. The fact is our transfer strategy was so wrong. Buying unproved players from Belgium. Terrible.

Edited July 24, 2020 by villalad21

[Bomvilla7]

29 minutes ago, tomav84 said:

he hasn't trained all week but they might chuck him in if he's in any way able to play

In his head, he also might not want to play because he is the most likely to get a good move if they go down. I doubt he would ruin that having had an injury and the new season starting fairly quickly in Sept. He will want to recover properly.

Clutching at straws I know, but I'm getting increasingly anxious about Sunday. 

[Keyblade]

6 hours ago, TRO said:

I find it interesting the debate regarding expectation.

If you set the bar to what you have achieved and wallow in self achievement you will never progress.....you have to strive for better.

E.g Liverpool will not sit back on their laurels....despite achieving just about everything, its not in their psyche, to sit on their hands.

being too self satisfied, breeds mediocrity.......we don't have to be depressed with under achievement, it is a great opportunity for betterment.....we should be able to talk about it, its not taboo.

If we stay up, we have a great opportunity to kick on.....lets not, miss it by being self satisfied.

We have to be more mentally tuned in to striving, and success will come....personally, I think significant progress is a form of success....lets go for it.

 

This is an interesting 180 from a couple of years ago where I recall you opposed the sacking of Steve Bruce despite his obvious failures and resting on his laurels of getting us to a playoff final. Curious that our PL status is now vital, where being there or thereabouts was just fine previously.

[Blasterpocket68]

 

2 hours ago, VillaCas said:

Who's minimum expectation? Yours? Also I guess it hangs on what you mean by minimum expection - At very best I thought 12th place was possible, at very worst I thought relegation was possible, when pressed my prediction was that we would struggle and finish 17th

Could we have done "lots better"? With the challenge we faced and with a 31 plyer turnaround, Not in my reckoning

Based on the fact what manger goes into a season with a 31 player turnaround you mention  and attempts to play football cavalier style, with a new team! Had DS been just a little more cautious we could and should of secured more points. Hopefully we will get the 3 points we need Sunday . Im not blowing smoke up DS bottom if we srcape thru and survive  he has been very naive this season and only changed strategy during the close down due to COVId. 

Had we started the season playing a little more defensively and cautious my opinion is we would be safe.

Lets hope we get the job done Sunday

UTV

[juanpabloangel18]

12 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

I don't count Mings as a new signing.

Also Konsa and Maupay has played under him before.

I'm not sure that would fly with the Premier League Player Registration committee

[TRO]

1 hour ago, Tomaszk said:

If that Arsenal header went in you'd still be saying we've got worse every game. I fully expect you to retract this comment and go back to that if we go down.

Remarkable opinion. Absolutely remarkable.

In the Championship you were defending draws and losses with teams with a twentieth of our budget because you decided you liked the manager.

Now a second miracle in two seasons could have you folding your arms saying " Ah, but this isn't enough". God knows what you want.

You don't know, what I would have said, neither do I .....but there is no pleasing you is there.

I criticise, when I think there is cause and praise when I think there is reason for doing so.....but thats not good enough for you though, you think, I have it for Dean Smith and when I legitimately praise him , you can't handle it.

Back to the game....

If Keinan had of scored, or John McGinns shot was slightly to the left or right, I might have gone overboard as opposed to your sarcastic claim.....(that first line).....what a ridiculous thing to say.

but the header didn't ,did it.....if Mings hadn't of gone up with him, it might have gone in......thats good play.....you call it good fortune.

Why do you keep raising budget....there are examples of teams doing well with low budgets......I didn't dislike Bruce and I still don't dislike him......That is not quite the same as liking him.....although it might be to you.

You just can't come to terms with me disagreeing with folk, who made accusations against him, I thought were unfair.......just like you do with Dean Smith, (which is fine by me by the way).....but you get all prickly when you think folk do it to your man.

That last line, is not worth answering and I am not going to its......desperate.

for me it doesn't matter who the manager is, I can't be condoning constant defeats, does that answer your pointed questions.

Edited July 24, 2020 by TRO

[chrisvilla4]

2 hours ago, LondonVillian said:

One win and suddenly everyones sucking off ds - even if we stay up he has to go

Its called romantic nourishment 

[Enda]

24 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

I don't count Mings as a new signing.

“We didn’t need a rebuild.”

”Four in, four out. That’s all we needed.”

”I don’t count Mings as a new signing.”

What’s next?

Look if your argument is £23m would have been better spent on Benrahma than Wesley I don’t think you’ll get much disagreement from people here. Benefit of hindsight and all that, but it’s a fair argument.

It’s the additional nonsense you tack on that has people not respecting your opinions.

[Rob182]

32 minutes ago, Enda said:

Seven of your starting eleven were not Aston Villa players at the end of last season.

I love how these hypothetical teams that we ‘should’ have built, conveniently include all of this seasons signings that have been a relative success (Guilbert, Konsa, Mings, Targett, Luiz etc), and none of the ones that are taking longer to adapt, or looked good at times but then tailed off/got injured.
 

What these people want is for us to ONLY ever sign players that will succeed in the league, and not players that will flop or take a season to adapt.

It’s called HINDSIGHT.  

[Cizzler]

1 hour ago, BleedClaretAndBlue said:

Probably lol. The B’mouth staying up bet was just a side bet. 13/1 is too good to pass up.

The main one is all that matters. Cant believe you can get odds of 3/1 when its so tight. Never feels bad losing money either when Villa profit.

Is it? The results you need (BOU, WHU and ARS all to win) pays 16/1 in a treble. 
 

Also, pedantic, but you actually got 12/1 - your odds are in decimals

Edited July 24, 2020 by Cizzler

[TheStagMan]

7 hours ago, villalad21 said:

We didn't need to either.

It was a choice the board and Smith made.

oh Christ!

[TRO]

16 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

This is an interesting 180 from a couple of years ago where I recall you opposed the sacking of Steve Bruce despite his obvious failures and resting on his laurels of getting us to a playoff final. Curious that our PL status is now vital, where being there or thereabouts was just fine previously.

you see you are wrong on all counts......It depends where from, you want to scrutinise my posts....something I never do myself, so I am going off memory, but because my sentiments are honest, I don't have to.

However, I will say this to you and have done so many times on here, that we all reserve the right to change our opinion and in 2 years, even more so......now those won't be posts you will pick out for me, because it doesn't suit your agenda.

Lets go back to your laborious point.....and I have explained my position on Steve Bruce so,so,so many times, but it appears it falls on deaf ears.

Steve Bruce...(I will try and be brief) from my point of view...and not go in to detail, as I'm bored of it.

When he came to us I was desperate to stop the Haemorraghing of goals, It was like floor with a hole in it, for me..... he did that relatively quickly and we ended up finishing 13th, not great, but the thing stopped bleeding, the football was not great, but with some new players I was hoping it would get better on the eye......next season we challenged for the title, we won 24 games in that season and just failed in the wembley final, the football for me was functional, not attractive, but in the light of the previous regime of conceding goals, I accepted it.....Then come armageddon and the true light of what had been going on, the Owner fled and left a kid in charge, who could at least speak the language......Steve was given a reprieve ( not much choice, i would imagine) but the squad was decimated for all the reasons we know.....He limped in to the new season accruing 3 wins in 11 Games.....It could not continue and there was no sign of it changing.

Those last few games was not a pretty sight.....I did not turn on the man, but the manager, could not continue and I said so on here, if you care to check carefully.....I thought and still do the cabbage, was in poor taste and hope it doesn't happen again to any of our managers, but I accepted he had to go, when he did and the club did the right thing and I said so then.

Now I know, that you will refuse to accept that, but that is the crux of it from me.

 

[Xela]

Less than 2 days to go. 

Not worried. Nope.

[Tomaszk]

31 minutes ago, TRO said:

You don't know, what I would have said, neither do I .....but there is no pleasing you is there.

You'd have continued to say what you have all season and issued a battering of the manager who won promotion and is competing in the division above with a squad that isn't good enough.

31 minutes ago, TRO said:

You just can't come to terms with me disagreeing with folk, who made accusations against him, I thought were unfair.......just like you do with Dean Smith, (which is fine by me by the way).....but you get all prickly when you think folk do it to your man.

Our man

31 minutes ago, TRO said:

That last line, is not worth answering and I am not going to its......desperate.

What when I said you wouldn't be happy with survival? You literally just said this...

7 hours ago, TRO said:

If we pat ourselves on the back for this season, we are shaking hands with mediocrity.

Staying up with this squad is an incredible achievement. Doesn't mean it's the end game or final target.

Surely you agree that we need about five or six new starting players this summer? We playing in the PL without a PL squad!

[TRO]

12 minutes ago, Rob182 said:

I love how these hypothetical teams that we ‘should’ have built, conveniently include all of this seasons signings that have been a relative success (Guilbert, Konsa, Mings, Targett, Luiz etc), and none of the ones that are taking longer to adapt, or looked good at times but then tailed off/got injured.
 

What these people want is for us to ONLY ever sign players that will succeed in the league, and not players that will flop or take a season to adapt.

It’s called HINDSIGHT.  

Rob....thats true and its idealistic, but that what we have to aim for.

In contrast, we have signed far too many that haven't worked out....I am talking in years now, not the odd season ad that covers a multitude of personnel, not just one.

Some players, do take longer than others, true, but equally that does not apply to them all......and also some clubs get the best out of players, when other clubs fail.....we all know the examples out there.

Personally, I would not inc Targett, but that just me.....we all have the players we rate and don't rate so much.

For me it is crystal clear that some clubs have a better rate of players they get something out of than others.....we all know some make it some don't......but it is the ratio of good to bad which is the crucial bit.

IMO Martin O'Neill signed c 38 players in his time with us and only a handful was worth writing home about.....but he still wanted more money.

and finally, you are right its called Hindsight and it is an exact science......but these scouts are employed with an ability to spot talent and visualize their potential.....some are very good, who would have spotted Vardy or David Platt, or Mahrez the trick is to get some who are good and can do that.....sadly to date we have been lacking.

 

[TRO]

3 minutes ago, Tomaszk said:

You'd have continued to say what you have all season and issued a battering of the manager who won promotion and is competing in the division above with a squad that isn't good enough.

Our man

What when I said you wouldn't be happy with survival? You literally just said this...

Staying up with this squad is an incredible achievement. Doesn't mean it's the end game or final target.

Surely you agree that we need about five or six new starting players this summer? We playing in the PL without a PL squad!

semantics.

[useless]

On 08/07/2020 at 19:50, useless said:

Knowing the cruelty we've had to endure, wouldn't surpise me if we climbed out of the bottom of three to allow us to taste freedom,  only to be then relegated on the final day of the season.

This which seemed far fetched when posted as we looked like we'd already be relegated by the final day, could now come true. Have we been given hope only to make the cold reality of relegation all the more painful and numbing should it happen.