Midfield Misery

[MotoMkali]

Over our last run of games extending back to the Brighton game is that our midfield hasn't been impacting the game enough. Certainly they have not been doing a good enough job at keeping the ball and linking the defence with attack as well as Generally letting teams walk through them with nary a challenge.

The issues: 1) Positioning seems to be very poor with single men losing shape when we are defending.

2) Movement off the ball is terrible and if mings or engels wins the ball back they generally only have the defensive midfielder to pass too and they only have engels and mings. I think this is the biggest issue and affects our entire game. 

3) Composure in the middle seems to be a massive problem. When our players get under pressure they resort to playing hospital balls and putting other players under pressure. No one comes to help see option 2) and we lose the ball again.

4) Decisiveness with our final balls is terrible especially Mcginn. When our players get the ball especially on the break el ghazi is usually on the shoulder of the last man where is the through ball. Against newcastle there were probably about 5 times where el ghazi would have been clean through in goal had either the right ball been played or come half a second earlier.

5) Exhaustion seems to occur at about 60 minutes and we slip in games. I also think the intensity straight after half surprises our players and they need to come out fighting every game. I think mcginn has been the main culprit lately especially with his rumoured injury but he has seemed very sluggish and he has been putting in a lot of risky challenges.

The fixes: 1) Change our tactics mcginn needs to be sitting deeper and if we are playing Conor or Lansbury they need to be our attacking midfielder if we are playing both Luiz and Nakamba I would still be tempted to play Luiz as the attacking midfielder sort of as a bounce man. I think mcginn has been playing out of position and it has been hurting us defensively and offensively where half the time he is level with wesley and nakamba still has the ball.

2) The players: We have been rotating our players and in some games different combos of players have looked great and then the next game they have looked terrible. The only combo we haven't really tried is nakamba, Luiz and hourihane but that would leave mcginn out which would hurt us as we would lose a big talent although it may help the team at least until he is rested and raring to go.

3) Super Jack plays back in the middle with trez coming to play as a winger. We haven't played a game with Jack targett and 2 other wingers and it could certainly see different results than with Taylor. 

 

Honestly I am concerned a lot of our problems are stemming from mcginn and his atypical game. It makes it harder to build a midfield around him as he rarely comes short for an easy pass it definitely makes the job harder for the other 2. He is obviously a talent but I think without Jack doing the key stuff like collecting the ball it shows mcginn really struggles without him. Hopefully moving him deeper would sort the problem but I'm not convinced with him it is hard to know what your midfield needs but right now I think it needs a big physical presence but they would have to come at the cost of one of mcginn, DM, and attacking midfielder and 2 of the roles are clearly defined. 

[Villan4Life]

13 minutes ago, MotoMkali said:

Over our last run of games extending back to the Brighton game is that our midfield hasn't been impacting the game enough. Certainly they have not been doing a good enough job at keeping the ball and linking the defence with attack as well as Generally letting teams walk through them with nary a challenge.

The issues: 1) Positioning seems to be very poor with single men losing shape when we are defending.

2) Movement off the ball is terrible and if mings or engels wins the ball back they generally only have the defensive midfielder to pass too and they only have engels and mings. I think this is the biggest issue and affects our entire game. 

3) Composure in the middle seems to be a massive problem. When our players get under pressure they resort to playing hospital balls and putting other players under pressure. No one comes to help see option 2) and we lose the ball again.

4) Decisiveness with our final balls is terrible especially Mcginn. When our players get the ball especially on the break el ghazi is usually on the shoulder of the last man where is the through ball. Against newcastle there were probably about 5 times where el ghazi would have been clean through in goal had either the right ball been played or come half a second earlier.

5) Exhaustion seems to occur at about 60 minutes and we slip in games. I also think the intensity straight after half surprises our players and they need to come out fighting every game. I think mcginn has been the main culprit lately especially with his rumoured injury but he has seemed very sluggish and he has been putting in a lot of risky challenges.

The fixes: 1) Change our tactics mcginn needs to be sitting deeper and if we are playing Conor or Lansbury they need to be our attacking midfielder if we are playing both Luiz and Nakamba I would still be tempted to play Luiz as the attacking midfielder sort of as a bounce man. I think mcginn has been playing out of position and it has been hurting us defensively and offensively where half the time he is level with wesley and nakamba still has the ball.

2) The players: We have been rotating our players and in some games different combos of players have looked great and then the next game they have looked terrible. The only combo we haven't really tried is nakamba, Luiz and hourihane but that would leave mcginn out which would hurt us as we would lose a big talent although it may help the team at least until he is rested and raring to go.

3) Super Jack plays back in the middle with trez coming to play as a winger. We haven't played a game with Jack targett and 2 other wingers and it could certainly see different results than with Taylor. 

 

Honestly I am concerned a lot of our problems are stemming from mcginn and his atypical game. It makes it harder to build a midfield around him as he rarely comes short for an easy pass it definitely makes the job harder for the other 2. He is obviously a talent but I think without Jack doing the key stuff like collecting the ball it shows mcginn really struggles without him. Hopefully moving him deeper would sort the problem but I'm not convinced with him it is hard to know what your midfield needs but right now I think it needs a big physical presence but they would have to come at the cost of one of mcginn, DM, and attacking midfielder and 2 of the roles are clearly defined. 

Rome wasn’t built in a day. Same with villa it will take us time to rebuild.  Not every  signing in summer will excel. Be a little more realistic... it’s going to take time.

Edited December 18, 2019 by Villan4Life

[MotoMkali]

1 minute ago, Villan4Life said:

Rome wasn’t built on a day. Same with villa it will take time to rebuild. 

I know but I'm stating the problems I currently see and these are the reason we have been losing (although 6 of the 9 were against the top 6) it doesn't change the fact that in those games our midfield was our problem we were overran and it seemed like our midfield capitulated and never really tried to keep the ball. When we did we actually strung some nice passing maneuvers around and created lots of good chances so why weren't we doing the whole pass and move thing all the time. 

[Villan4Life]

4 minutes ago, MotoMkali said:

I know but I'm stating the problems I currently see and these are the reason we have been losing (although 6 of the 9 were against the top 6) it doesn't change the fact that in those games our midfield was our problem we were overran and it seemed like our midfield capitulated and never really tried to keep the ball. When we did we actually strung some nice passing maneuvers around and created lots of good chances so why weren't we doing the whole pass and move thing all the time. 

Football is an unpredictable game. Can go either way. Moments can change in gane that’s why These  things happen similar as to  in life unexpected things happen thar changes the path of it..

Edited December 18, 2019 by Villan4Life

[Only2McInallys]

26 minutes ago, MotoMkali said:

Over our last run of games extending back to the Brighton game is that our midfield hasn't been impacting the game enough. Certainly they have not been doing a good enough job at keeping the ball and linking the defence with attack as well as Generally letting teams walk through them with nary a challenge.

The issues: 1) Positioning seems to be very poor with single men losing shape when we are defending.

2) Movement off the ball is terrible and if mings or engels wins the ball back they generally only have the defensive midfielder to pass too and they only have engels and mings. I think this is the biggest issue and affects our entire game. 

3) Composure in the middle seems to be a massive problem. When our players get under pressure they resort to playing hospital balls and putting other players under pressure. No one comes to help see option 2) and we lose the ball again.

4) Decisiveness with our final balls is terrible especially Mcginn. When our players get the ball especially on the break el ghazi is usually on the shoulder of the last man where is the through ball. Against newcastle there were probably about 5 times where el ghazi would have been clean through in goal had either the right ball been played or come half a second earlier.

5) Exhaustion seems to occur at about 60 minutes and we slip in games. I also think the intensity straight after half surprises our players and they need to come out fighting every game. I think mcginn has been the main culprit lately especially with his rumoured injury but he has seemed very sluggish and he has been putting in a lot of risky challenges.

The fixes: 1) Change our tactics mcginn needs to be sitting deeper and if we are playing Conor or Lansbury they need to be our attacking midfielder if we are playing both Luiz and Nakamba I would still be tempted to play Luiz as the attacking midfielder sort of as a bounce man. I think mcginn has been playing out of position and it has been hurting us defensively and offensively where half the time he is level with wesley and nakamba still has the ball.

2) The players: We have been rotating our players and in some games different combos of players have looked great and then the next game they have looked terrible. The only combo we haven't really tried is nakamba, Luiz and hourihane but that would leave mcginn out which would hurt us as we would lose a big talent although it may help the team at least until he is rested and raring to go.

3) Super Jack plays back in the middle with trez coming to play as a winger. We haven't played a game with Jack targett and 2 other wingers and it could certainly see different results than with Taylor. 

 

Honestly I am concerned a lot of our problems are stemming from mcginn and his atypical game. It makes it harder to build a midfield around him as he rarely comes short for an easy pass it definitely makes the job harder for the other 2. He is obviously a talent but I think without Jack doing the key stuff like collecting the ball it shows mcginn really struggles without him. Hopefully moving him deeper would sort the problem but I'm not convinced with him it is hard to know what your midfield needs but right now I think it needs a big physical presence but they would have to come at the cost of one of mcginn, DM, and attacking midfielder and 2 of the roles are clearly defined. 

This is a really good analysis of why we are struggling at the moment.Although I love McGinn as a player,a person and his never say die attitude I think the combination of him and Grealish has flaws.He is too forward minded and it leaves us too open when we lose the ball.

I don’t think having both of them gives us enough protection especially when El gazi is playing.We are a very strong force going forward with these players and at home this combination works especially against weaker opposition but away it leaves us too open.

 

[SuffolkVillan]

I wonder if a 4-1-4-1 would stiffen up the central areas but still allow for creativity from Jack and McGinn. Possibly this:

                             Heaton

Guilbert    Konsa       Engels       Targett

                           Nakamba

McGinn      Luiz         Grealish       El Ghazi

                           Wesley

 

Interested to hear thoughts about McGinn in this role.

 

[A'Villan]

I think what you're seeing is a new team getting familiar with each other and making the inevitable fumble  Smith included, Smith especially.

Grealish, McGinn and Luiz are not really midfielders I would describe as miserable in their influence on games or general footballing display.

Grealish - One of the best midfielders in the world at present. End of. Any team he's not in is missing out.

McGinn - Already established himself as PL quality, no denying his development. Daring and tenacious.

Luiz - Would be playing for a spot with last years champions had things not gone our way. Brazil international.

Should we survive the drop this year, mark my words, that will go on to be one of the best midfields in England, and worldwide.

As a team we are very much finding our feet, I liken it to a youth side, still not sure of how or when to apply the skills and tactics being developed and worked on.

Everyone brings a unique experience of football to the table with them, no two coaches are identical, no two players have ever played an identical match.

We're struggling to be on the wavelength we need to be in order to achieve in this league, understandable as I've outlined in other posts.

But we're not in the drop zone, and my guess is that with time will come progress for this young and talented ensemble. Hopefully a half season sees enough of it for us to survive.

 

[AV82]

The lack of movement in the middle of the park is of particular concern but, encouragingly, Conor dropped a little deeper (in the McGinn role) against Liverpool which gave us another option when finding an out ball from the back.

Hopefully this was Smith tinkering after seeing our number 6 overrun on multiple occasions.

[KenjiOgiwara]

I agree about McGinn. It puzzles me why he is pushed so advanced. 

Firstly we tend to move both Targett and Guilbert quite high up the pitch. Which means we often get caught with just 2 cbs and 2 cms in position. 

Secondly McGinn's strengths to me are mostly as a battling midfielder who excells at initiating attacks and bursting from the deep. He's a square peg up there. You lose out most things he's good at for the chance he can get into a position to get a shot off. 

It's very confusing why we set him up the way we do. 

[maqroll]

We tend to get a result when Hourihane starts. More Hourihane, please. I know I'm supposed to prefer the new guys, but what the hell.

[Delphinho123]

Our midfield is good enough for us to survive and will get better. Our attacking options are not.

Nothing to see here.

[Villan_of_oz]

1 hour ago, Delphinho123 said:

Our midfield is good enough for us to survive and will get better. Our attacking options are not.

Nothing to see here.

If this is your point of you I really do doubt your ability to be impartial and see what's going on all over the pitch.....

Let me explain it to you. If the midfield can't 1) create chances for our attack and 2) offer protection for our attack so they have trust they can go do their thing, then the attack has no chance of influencing a game.

Why do you think Wesley is coming so deep into midfield?

Id love for you articulate why you think it is all the attacking players fault?

[lapal_fan]

I quite like teams who have balanced wingers.  We've got two out-and-out wingers who will get forward at any time, that leaves us exposed.

I liked it when we had Young on the left and Milner/Downing on the right.  Young almost plays second striker, was always one of the first to break, whilst Milner/Downing were useful as midfielders. 

Forest with O'Neill/Robertson - you have flair one side, hard work and tactical maturity on the other. 

If we do try McGinn on a wing, it might see him become a bit more tactically astute? 

Just a thought. 

[lexicon]

For Soton, I'd go:

-------------------Heaton------------------

Guilbert--Engels--Hause---Targett

------Nakamba-------Luiz-------------

-----------------Grealish--------------------

Trez/AEG-----------------------------Jota

--------------------Wes-----------------------

[Junxs]

Let's not forget we played 7 of the top 8 teams in the last 8 games.

Many of those games we gave a good account of ourselves, the one game which wasnt against a top 8 side we won comfortably 2-0 against Newcastle.

Funny how the fixtures have fallen as our next 3 games are against all the bottom 3, I doubt we will be finding faults in our midfield after those 3 games. Fully expecting to be sitting midtable with a decent buffer to the relegation zone after these 3 games.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Junxs

[AntrimBlack]

15 hours ago, A'Villan said:

I think what you're seeing is a new team getting familiar with each other and making the inevitable fumble  Smith included, Smith especially.

Grealish, McGinn and Luiz are not really midfielders I would describe as miserable in their influence on games or general footballing display.

Grealish - One of the best midfielders in the world at present. End of. Any team he's not in is missing out.

McGinn - Already established himself as PL quality, no denying his development. Daring and tenacious.

Luiz - Would be playing for a spot with last years champions had things not gone our way. Brazil international.

Should we survive the drop this year, mark my words, that will go on to be one of the best midfields in England, and worldwide.

As a team we are very much finding our feet, I liken it to a youth side, still not sure of how or when to apply the skills and tactics being developed and worked on.

Everyone brings a unique experience of football to the table with them, no two coaches are identical, no two players have ever played an identical match.

We're struggling to be on the wavelength we need to be in order to achieve in this league, understandable as I've outlined in other posts.

But we're not in the drop zone, and my guess is that with time will come progress for this young and talented ensemble. Hopefully a half season sees enough of it for us to survive.

 

Some big claims there.

I don't agree with any of them.

[A'Villan]

7 hours ago, AntrimBlack said:

Some big claims there.

I don't agree with any of them.

You're right, big claims, in hindsight I don't agree with all of them either.

The Grealish one can be argued, but I have done it to death. If you would like me to elaborate then do so, and I will.

The Luiz one can basically be proven. Lots of supporting evidence on that one, I'm just popping in at the minute, but again, call on me for it and I'll provide.

The claim that this will eventually be one of the best midfields in England and worldwide is ambitious at best, wide of the mark at sensible for now.

Apologies for the last one, I like to see the best in people, and I do like Aston Villa. There's a huge way to go and a myriad of factors all needing to improve exponentially for that one.

[zab6359]

On 19/12/2019 at 07:21, MotoMkali said:

Over our last run of games extending back to the Brighton game is that our midfield hasn't been impacting the game enough. Certainly they have not been doing a good enough job at keeping the ball and linking the defence with attack as well as Generally letting teams walk through them with nary a challenge.

The issues: 1) Positioning seems to be very poor with single men losing shape when we are defending.

2) Movement off the ball is terrible and if mings or engels wins the ball back they generally only have the defensive midfielder to pass too and they only have engels and mings. I think this is the biggest issue and affects our entire game. 

3) Composure in the middle seems to be a massive problem. When our players get under pressure they resort to playing hospital balls and putting other players under pressure. No one comes to help see option 2) and we lose the ball again.

4) Decisiveness with our final balls is terrible especially Mcginn. When our players get the ball especially on the break el ghazi is usually on the shoulder of the last man where is the through ball. Against newcastle there were probably about 5 times where el ghazi would have been clean through in goal had either the right ball been played or come half a second earlier.

5) Exhaustion seems to occur at about 60 minutes and we slip in games. I also think the intensity straight after half surprises our players and they need to come out fighting every game. I think mcginn has been the main culprit lately especially with his rumoured injury but he has seemed very sluggish and he has been putting in a lot of risky challenges.

The fixes: 1) Change our tactics mcginn needs to be sitting deeper and if we are playing Conor or Lansbury they need to be our attacking midfielder if we are playing both Luiz and Nakamba I would still be tempted to play Luiz as the attacking midfielder sort of as a bounce man. I think mcginn has been playing out of position and it has been hurting us defensively and offensively where half the time he is level with wesley and nakamba still has the ball.

2) The players: We have been rotating our players and in some games different combos of players have looked great and then the next game they have looked terrible. The only combo we haven't really tried is nakamba, Luiz and hourihane but that would leave mcginn out which would hurt us as we would lose a big talent although it may help the team at least until he is rested and raring to go.

3) Super Jack plays back in the middle with trez coming to play as a winger. We haven't played a game with Jack targett and 2 other wingers and it could certainly see different results than with Taylor. 

 

Honestly I am concerned a lot of our problems are stemming from mcginn and his atypical game. It makes it harder to build a midfield around him as he rarely comes short for an easy pass it definitely makes the job harder for the other 2. He is obviously a talent but I think without Jack doing the key stuff like collecting the ball it shows mcginn really struggles without him. Hopefully moving him deeper would sort the problem but I'm not convinced with him it is hard to know what your midfield needs but right now I think it needs a big physical presence but they would have to come at the cost of one of mcginn, DM, and attacking midfielder and 2 of the roles are clearly defined. 

Why don't you email this to Dean Smith sure he'd take it all on board and do as you say and fix everything in one fell swoop!

[MotoMkali]

2 hours ago, zab6359 said:

Why don't you email this to Dean Smith sure he'd take it all on board and do as you say and fix everything in one fell swoop!

Very funny mate. I was just suggesting things that might reduce the issues I have seen. They are unlikely to fix everything or maybe anything. Everyone knows we have been struggling with our midfield for a while now and I thought I would say my thoughts on it. 

[Villan_of_oz]

2 minutes ago, MotoMkali said:

Very funny mate. I was just suggesting things that might reduce the issues I have seen. They are unlikely to fix everything or maybe anything. Everyone knows we have been struggling with our midfield for a while now and I thought I would say my thoughts on it. 

I'm amazed how many people on here can have an opinion but don't like hearing someone else's....