abdulaziz1 Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 (edited) We’re now getting used to fail in terms of results against teams that play with 10 men. Two weeks on row without getting any benefit from opponents getting red cards. Yet we’re usually not that good when we’re the ones down to 10 men as we saw at Palace. So its a failure either way. I can recall from my memory (so could be more) couple of games beginning with Playoff final against Fulham were we failed to get back to the game. Then Ipswich away last season (we were up and even thought they had a early red card they managed to get the draw). Then the famous Nottingham Forest game 5-5, we played fantastically but somehow we didn’t capitalize a late red card for them when they came after it to draw. Then we go to Baggies playoff semis, We failed to score a third goal after their red card in the home game. Then failed to score any in a full extra times in the second game. It went to a lottery which we won luckily. Then coming back to the last two games, it was acceptable against West Ham. But the way we gave it to Arsenal was really bad. Its becoming like a habbit, when the Arsenal player got a red card I can’t deny I was happy, but at the same time I know that we always use this weapon and advantage against ourselves. So apart from WBA at home where we actually were winning and turned the table before their red, we didn’t win any game recently. Again I’m not sure if this stat is right, but it says alot. I’m gutted about the game, didn’t know what to post. But I think this issue is being a big problem. Although at the same time, we seem to force teams to get colored cards against us usually, McGinn and Grealish are important in that, so I guess we need to address the best approach in these circumstances. Up The Villa! Edited September 23, 2019 by abdulaziz1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 I think a lot of it comes down to how poor we are holding on to the ball. With an extra man, and the extra space, we ought to be able to hold the ball and exhaust the other team. The opposite happened twice in a row, and we still end up sprinting for the whole game trying to close them down. Our midfield was exhausted by 75 minutes, if you looked at players on either side, you'd think they had the extra man. Possession isn't everything, but when we keep having less possession than teams with 1 fewer player, it suggests we're pretty damn poor holding the ball, and things would only have been a lot worse if it stayed 11vs11. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villalad21 Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 It's shocking really. Any other club in this league would capitalize on that advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa89 Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 27 minutes ago, Davkaus said: I think a lot of it comes down to how poor we are holding on to the ball. With an extra man, and the extra space, we ought to be able to hold the ball and exhaust the other team. The opposite happened twice in a row, and we still end up sprinting for the whole game trying to close them down. Our midfield was exhausted by 75 minutes, if you looked at players on either side, you'd think they had the extra man. Possession isn't everything, but when we keep having less possession than teams with 1 fewer player, it suggests we're pretty damn poor holding the ball, and things would only have been a lot worse if it stayed 11vs11. This is pretty much it. If you want to make use of a man advantage you have to be able to retain possession. We didn't learn from the loss at Spurs and did the same thing yesterday versus Arsenal, sat back and let the opponent have the ball with the inevitable result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danceoftheshamen Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 It shows a lack of intelligence & confidence in their own ability in the team to me. We get a goal up and then stop doing the things which got us there. It happened twice against Arsenal. We show a real lack of nous in those situations. From DS comments post game it looks like he is saying the same thing too. If you sit back and try to defend a single goal lead against pretty much any Premier League team you are more often than not going to mess it up and being against 10 or 11 men is pretty irrelevant (See Spurs & Arsenal away both virtually identical defeats thrown away in exactly the same way) & when you are posing no threat going forwards and just trying to block holes as it means they will find a way through you at some point. We basically allowed them to do that by being clueless in possession and not threatening them nearly enough thus allowing them to push on against us and nullifying any numerical advantage we had. Shocking really for a Premier League team. Trouble now is you can only see confidence being even more shot after that nightmare on Saturday and we have that horrid nightmare back of knowing with this team no win is secure until the final whistle blows regardless of the score or any numerical advantage we have player wise.... Didn't we have that before when we had been relegated and it took Steve Bruce ages to turn it around?? I see no quick fix for this sadly Burnley will be licking their lips for Saturday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 It's underpinned by extremely poor strength and conditioning training. We're out of gas after 65 minutes every single game. In that sort of state you're never going to keep the ball or be particularly sharp with it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomaszk Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 (edited) Every time we attacked, we made chances. Every time. It was one of the strangest performances I've seen from us. When we went 2-1 up I thought that would be enough. The team, the manager would realise we need to keep going forwards because we'll score again. No. Let's sit back and force Arsenal back into the game. We'd have lost that v anyone else in the league. The opponents being Arsenal has saved the coach and players from more criticism. Edited September 23, 2019 by Tomaszk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villalad21 Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 Looks like we have a fitness issue. We collapsed the last 20 against Spurs too. Makes you wonder what the hell they've been doing all pre season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 I know Jota played a stinker last time out but surely he'd be better to bring in at RW than Elmo. He's calm with the ball and has vision, against 10 men you try and keep the ball, not sit back with and extra RB. The other subs came to late to matter anyway but I'd have Luiz on the bench rather than Lansbury if Hourihane is already there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zab6359 Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 16 minutes ago, villa89 said: This is pretty much it. If you want to make use of a man advantage you have to be able to retain possession. We didn't learn from the loss at Spurs and did the same thing yesterday versus Arsenal, sat back and let the opponent have the ball with the inevitable result. We didn't sit back we were pushed deeper and deeper by two much better sides it'll happen a lot this season whenever we take a lead, and not just by the big teams. **** imagine taking a lead against Liverpool!! We will probably get more results chasing games especially at VP with the crowd behind us. 14 minutes ago, danceoftheshamen said: It shows a lack of intelligence & confidence in their own ability in the team to me. We get a goal up and then stop doing the things which got us there. It happened twice against Arsenal. We show a real lack of nous in those situations. From DS comments post game it looks like he is saying the same thing too. If you sit back and try to defend a single goal lead against pretty much any Premier League team you are more often than not going to mess it up and being against 10 or 11 men is pretty irrelevant (See Spurs & Arsenal away both virtually identical defeats thrown away in exactly the same way) & when you are posing no threat going forwards and just trying to block holes as it means they will find a way through you at some point. We basically allowed them to do that by being clueless in possession and not threatening them nearly enough thus allowing them to push on against us and nullifying any numerical advantage we had. Shocking really for a Premier League team. Trouble now is you can only see confidence being even more shot after that nightmare on Saturday and we have that horrid nightmare back of knowing with this team no win is secure until the final whistle blows regardless of the score or any numerical advantage we have player wise.... Didn't we have that before when we had been relegated and it took Steve Bruce ages to turn it around?? I see no quick fix for this sadly Burnley will be licking their lips for Saturday. Disappointed yes but confidence shot? Nah they have been to a top club and took the lead twice and ended up narrowly defeated. Last time we went there we came away with a spanking. As for Burnley licking there lips I think most teams will be like that, they will see us as a newly promoted team and want/expect to take points off us. 6 minutes ago, Dr_Pangloss said: It's underpinned by extremely poor strength and conditioning training. We're out of gas after 65 minutes every single game. In that sort of state you're never going to keep the ball or be particularly sharp with it. Totally disagree nothing to do with poor strength and conditioning at all I'm sure the coaching staff are conversant with modern training methods, and it's not every game. The reason we are blowing is the standard of the teams we are playing now it's so much higher they know how to make you work hard pull you out of position etc. It's what subs are for when used correctly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 1 minute ago, zab6359 said: We didn't sit back we were pushed deeper and deeper by two much better sides it'll happen a lot this season whenever we take a lead, and not just by the big teams. **** imagine taking a lead against Liverpool!! We will probably get more results chasing games especially at VP with the crowd behind us. Disappointed yes but confidence shot? Nah they have been to a top club and took the lead twice and ended up narrowly defeated. Last time we went there we came away with a spanking. As for Burnley licking there lips I think most teams will be like that, they will see us as a newly promoted team and want/expect to take points off us. Totally disagree nothing to do with poor strength and conditioning at all I'm sure the coaching staff are conversant with modern training methods, and it's not every game. The reason we are blowing is the standard of the teams we are playing now it's so much higher they know how to make you work hard pull you out of position etc. It's what subs are for when used correctly Players routinely running out of gas 2/3rds into a match is indicative of poor strength and conditioning. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zab6359 Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 7 minutes ago, Dr_Pangloss said: Players routinely running out of gas 2/3rds into a match is indicative of poor strength and conditioning. Or just being worked hard by a superior opposition. I really like to think with all the facilities and staff available at BMH we are getting the basics of fitness correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapal_fan Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 Sometimes I wonder whether fans booing when we play the ball safely backwards has something to do with it. It's always something that's frustrated me about our fan-base, impatience. We've always been a team that tries to do things quickly, within 10 passes and if that fails our attacks usually break down. Against 10 men, you've got to make the pitch large, keep your shape, keep the ball moving and tired your opponents. Yes, that's incredibly simplistic, but there were times we had the ball on the wings, or our 18 yard box yesterday and we're looking to pump it 30 yards to Wesley for him to try and make something of. It's odd. Just keep it really simple. don't forget, Arsenal kept 2 of their strikers on the pitch yesterday in Pepe and Abuma and we still couldn't take advantage of the gaping chasm in the middle of the park (that shaggy haired dude played really well 2nd half though). We've got to get hold of the ball and just slow the tempo to our tempo and dictate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 2 hours ago, villalad21 said: Looks like we have a fitness issue. We collapsed the last 20 against Spurs too. Makes you wonder what the hell they've been doing all pre season. Think we signed too many players late in the window so they missed the early weeks of pre season where the core fitness is built in. Say happened in 2015 window when Sherwood was moaning 3-4 games into the season the players weren't fit enough. As for the thread yes we're annually rubbish v 10 men. I also remember a McLeish game against Spurs at VP which I think was last home game. We're 1 up, Danny Rose gets sent off early in second half and then Spurs completely batter us for rest of the game. We just about clung onto 1-1 to stay up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delphinho123 Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 It's both strange and extremely worrying that both Arsenal and West Ham looked better than us with 10 men. I'm a huge fan of Smith's but would argue he got it wrong on both occasions with the subs he's made when the opposition goes down to 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 Its also weird that we looked better when the opposition had 11 (i thought we more than held our own against WHU and had the best chance of the game, and although i didn't see the Arsenal game it sounds like we played pretty well prior to the red?) Its like our players suddenly realised we've got the man advantage, now we are expected to win, and they bottled it. As soon as West Ham got the red we started rushing to get the ball forward, a lot of direct long ball stuff and then chasing after it (knackering ourselves out), whereas before we'd actually been more composed. It was like we thought we had to score immediately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abdulaziz1 Posted September 24, 2019 Author Share Posted September 24, 2019 16 hours ago, zab6359 said: Or just being worked hard by a superior opposition. I really like to think with all the facilities and staff available at BMH we are getting the basics of fitness correct. To get worked that hard with a 1 man down for Arsenal? This has been the case whenever our opposition gets down to 10. Even against Palace we managed to have couple of good last minutes. We seem to do actually better when we’re down to 10. We could’ve get back to 4-3 against Preston which we gladly didn’t when Bruce went. We’ve even could’ve get something out of Palace. I’d have liked to say that it was because of our attacking, but its not. Its been around since god knows how long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abdulaziz1 Posted September 24, 2019 Author Share Posted September 24, 2019 16 hours ago, villalad21 said: Looks like we have a fitness issue. We collapsed the last 20 against Spurs too. Makes you wonder what the hell they've been doing all pre season. That could be the case, but in another way, we’ve been bottling it against 10 players even against the likes of Ipswich. No one could say they have better fitness in their team. If we got the second against Arsenal we’d have won it comfortably. We just can’t handle pressure if we’re up in the last couple of minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zab6359 Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, abdulaziz1 said: To get worked that hard with a 1 man down for Arsenal? This has been the case whenever our opposition gets down to 10. Even against Palace we managed to have couple of good last minutes. We seem to do actually better when we’re down to 10. We could’ve get back to 4-3 against Preston which we gladly didn’t when Bruce went. We’ve even could’ve get something out of Palace. I’d have liked to say that it was because of our attacking, but its not. Its been around since god knows how long. Absolutely yes they had two £70m players on the pitch and numerous £40m players. Arsenal are a very good side streets ahead of us, we did bloody well against them. You kinda answer your own question by saying we play better when we're down to 10. Often going down to 10 men makes teams switch on and consolidate as we did against Palace when we scored a perfectly legitimate goal and should have taken a point. Edited September 24, 2019 by zab6359 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentVillan Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 The 10 men thing is just a massive coincidence that it's happened two games running, and now we're looking at it as some kind of problem this team has. The focus should be on how we play football 11 v 11, since that's how the vast majority of our matches will be played start to finish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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