Addiction

[A'Villan]

On 07/09/2019 at 10:25, KentVillan said:

It's a very "alpha" drug. That's where a lot of its glamorous reputation comes from - because it's expensive and it appeals to needy egos, people who are very gluttonous in their approach to life, and like to have their ego stroked.

The public image of cocaine is very much what you see in the early stages, when it's still done in public, so you mainly see young, beautiful people doing it. The rock stars and models and actors and cityboys and so on.

I suspect the truth is that most of the money spent on cocaine is actually sad, middle-aged men flirting with heart disease, chewing someone's ear off in a bar, and then going home to have a wank or ordering in a prostitute (something I've never done actually, but I know the two are a popular meal deal).

To be honest, I'm cautious about sharing too many of the fun time stories, because they really are just tempting nostalgia for anyone who has ever done this stuff. (I remember watching Wolf of Wall St, which supposedly exposes the dark side of cocaine abuse, but really for any cocaine user it's just a massive advert for it. It's very similar to seeing an obese person enjoying a Big Mac. You don't think about the obesity, you just think about the delicious Big Mac.)

Anyway, for every amazing experience, there's 100s of dreary nights (and days) of moronic, narcissistic chat finished off with a neverending wank and heart palpitations, followed by several days of bleak living hell. Broken relationships and failed jobs. It's such a pointless existence.

And of course you're risking a heart attack or a stroke on top of the effects on your mental health.

By the way, if there's a slight tone in my posts of me blaming the drug or blaming politicians or blaming dealers, then that's not really how I feel about my own situation. I know that it's my responsibility, even if I have a genetic predisposition or whatever. Everyone has their weaknesses, and life is all about overcoming them.

Also I don't want this thread to be dominated by cocaine. I'm genuinely interested in other people's problems and how they've dealt with them.

I find that part of the problem with talking about addictions is that addicts tend to be raconteurs and tend to get nostalgic about the glory days, and there's always a little part in an addict's head that kind of enjoys the gallows humour of the dark days (shitting my pants while waiting to board a plane is my favourite). But what's really important is to be solution focussed. Whenever I focus on today, and tomorrow, and the week ahead I tend to find I'm more powerful. When I start storytelling it can give me that little rush of anticipation.

 

Whilst you're speaking a lot of truth here, I believe your message here is slightly cynical, maybe you would agree?

Most of the people I know who do coke, and I know quite a few, are really quite pleasant and even down to earth. Even when they overdo it and talk at me, rather than with.

I've done it less than a handful of times and I don't think I ever will again. The quality in Australia is useless and even when our crew had a good connection, it wasn't my thing.

Until drugs are legal I don't really see a culture that allows for them to be healthy developing, perhaps most would suggest I am an idiot for suggesting drugs could be healthy.

I think in our current state, as it is, consumerism is rife, things are taken for granted, as are people. Superficiality and keeping people at arm's length is the norm.

"Mind your business as they say"

When you have these underlying traits ingrained into society and as dogma, whether people recognise that it is that way or not, the tendency will be to take it with you in any walk.

Whether drugs, business, relationships etc.

It's all about respect, I think, and it's great that everyone deep down knows it, but unfortunately for whatever reason it is not so readily accomplished as a practice.

[KentVillan]

2 minutes ago, A'Villan said:

Whilst you're speaking a lot of truth here, I believe your message here is slightly cynical, maybe you would agree?

Most of the people I know who do coke, and I know quite a few, are really quite pleasant and even down to earth. Even when they overdo it and talk at me, rather than with.

Until drugs are legal I don't really see a culture that allows for them to be healthy developing, perhaps most would suggest I am an idiot for suggesting drugs could be healthy.

Well firstly, I'm not saying everyone who does it is evil. I've never done anything particularly morally reprehensible while high. I still have a moral compass when I'm wired, it's just a little bit less responsive.

Secondly, I don't think legalisation is all that relevant to what we're talking about here - as any gambling addict or alcoholic will testify.

From a policing point of view, I probably agree that drug legalisation would help to reduce the harm caused by drug trafficking and dealing, and make it easier for the govt to target resources at vulnerable people and communities.

But I don't share your optimism about how it would create this positive culture around taking drugs. Modern consumerist society didn't make me wake up dehydrated, smelling like old pants, mouth ulcers, blocked nose, 100 missed calls on my mobile, £2000 overdrawn, feeling like a pig had shat in my brain.

I could tell loads of spiritual, feel good stories about my fun times taking drugs - genuinely positive experiences, like making lifelong friends or going on adventures. People wouldn't do it if there wasn't some positive to it.

But the best analogy I could give about cocaine nostalgia is an Adama Traore highlights reel. What you see on the YouTube video is all the amazing explosive stuff, flying by the seat of his pants, and it makes you wonder why Villa ever gave up on him. But then you remind yourself that most of the time he was depressing, embarrassing, and stupid and made you want to kill yourself.

Why seek positive experiences through something that can trigger heart attacks and brain haemorrhages when you can go to a Villa match or talk to your mates or travel the world or run your own business or learn a musical instrument? As someone said earlier, there's a fine line between a hobby and an addiction. The difference is that a hobby is something that helps to give your life meaning, whereas an addiction is something that steals it from you - eats away at your spirit as @Rugeley Villa said.

Anyway, I'm fully prepared to accept that some people can go through life dabbling in hard drugs, and never really come to much harm. Fair play to them, I don't hold it against them. Just be aware that all drug users think that's them when they start out. As Mike Tyson said, "everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face." You're never in as much control as you think you are. Be kind to yourself.

[A'Villan]

@KentVillan I'm about to start a long day, will get back to you when I can.

I glanced over the post, and as always it seems well reasoned and discerning.

I'm not by any means suggesting that drugs will somehow cease to have harmful consequences, should society change the attitude surrounding them.

As I mention it's about respect, and that means appreciating that consumption at a certain rate or frequency will have detrimental effect.

[NurembergVillan]

Some absolutely top drawer posts in this thread.  Ruge and Kent, your posts have been as eloquent as they have honest.  Powerful stuff.

@villan-scott I totally get the FUT thing.  I think I still have some semblance of an addiction to it, even if only in terms of the time I spend on the web app to trade and build teams.  I managed to build an incredible squad this year without spending a cent.  In previous years though, especially in Canada where I was pre-kids, earning a fortune, and in a different timezone to my mates so had nothing better to do, I spent fortunes.  I was never one to buy packs, though.  I was fully cheating and buying coins.  A market crash and the loss of a load of in-game coins was soul-destroying.  Looking back it was pretty intense.

I like to think I don't have an addictive personality, but I think we're all vulnerable to something.  Just a case of whether we've stumbled upon it and how negative an impact it's had.

[villan-scott]

11 hours ago, NurembergVillan said:

Some absolutely top drawer posts in this thread.  Ruge and Kent, your posts have been as eloquent as they have honest.  Powerful stuff.

@villan-scott I totally get the FUT thing.  I think I still have some semblance of an addiction to it, even if only in terms of the time I spend on the web app to trade and build teams.  I managed to build an incredible squad this year without spending a cent.  In previous years though, especially in Canada where I was pre-kids, earning a fortune, and in a different timezone to my mates so had nothing better to do, I spent fortunes.  I was never one to buy packs, though.  I was fully cheating and buying coins.  A market crash and the loss of a load of in-game coins was soul-destroying.  Looking back it was pretty intense.

I like to think I don't have an addictive personality, but I think we're all vulnerable to something.  Just a case of whether we've stumbled upon it and how negative an impact it's had.

It’s a very easy trap to fall into it. I really got into the trading side of it this time around, which was still addictive, but not costing anything. Special mention to @ml1dch who got me started with the SBC and trading. Saved me a fortune!! 

EA are terrible though, every week there are offers on packs, and special packs to open, limited time etc etc. So easy to just think I’ll spend 10-20 quid and open a few, and get carried away. They have a lot to answer for. 

There has been talk on the news this week about capping in game purchases. I hope they do make some changes. 

[Vive_La_Villa]

I have no idea what FIFA ultimate team is but reading some posts on here the fact you can actually buy players with real money sounds very wrong .  Especially since it’s mainly kids playing FIFA. 

Edit: I just read up on what FUT is and now I’m tempted to buy it! 

Edited September 15, 2019 by Vive_La_Villa

[Davkaus]

23 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Especially since it’s mainly kids playing FIFA. 

Yup, the big game studios have become a rather insidious gambling racket, hiding their exploitative practices in the costume of their older products. Hard to see what can be done short of actually banning it though.

You can ban it in games aimed at kids and enforce 18 ratings on any game that has gambling mechanics in it, but when does an 18 rating stop kids playing games? 

[Vive_La_Villa]

1 hour ago, Davkaus said:

Yup, the big game studios have become a rather insidious gambling racket, hiding their exploitative practices in the costume of their older products. Hard to see what can be done short of actually banning it though.

You can ban it in games aimed at kids and enforce 18 ratings on any game that has gambling mechanics in it, but when does an 18 rating stop kids playing games? 

Even more emphasis on parents to know what their kids are doing I guess. 

When I was a kid my parents didn’t have a clue what I used to be up to. I used to play Lesuire Suit Larry when I was about 11 lol.

Edited September 15, 2019 by Vive_La_Villa

[KentVillan]

Interesting piece on a treatment centre for gambling addiction https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-49687500

Quote

An estimated 340,000 people across the UK have a serious gambling addiction, according to the Gambling Commission.

The NHS and the charity Gamble Aware are jointly funding the service in the north of England - which is expected to cost about £1m a year - for the next three years.

The service is set to open centres in Manchester and Sunderland, to serve the north of England and north Midlands.

It's extraordinary that we've allowed this problem to reach that scale, given that gambling is something the state has a lot of power to control. I feel a bit ashamed to support a club and follow a sport that is complicit in fuelling this problem through advertising, sponsorship, etc. clearly targeted at children.

On a separate note, if anyone is quietly reading this thread and debating whether to share their own experiences, for what it's worth, I've found it really useful and a source of strength. More than once over the last week I've revisited some of the stuff I and others have written in this thread, and it has helped to focus my mind in the right direction.

[Davkaus]

2 hours ago, KentVillan said:

I feel a bit ashamed to support a club and follow a sport that is complicit in fuelling this problem through advertising, sponsorship, etc. clearly targeted at children.

Same, it all feels very grubby. the amount of money in this sport, and they feel the need to make just a tiny bit more by getting in to bed with these grubby companies. They're an absolute blight on society and it's horrific that we're advertising them on the front of our shirt. Kind of a shame they've even plastered it all over the training gear now, I won't wear one of our shirts that has that shite over it. Fortunately I loaded up on a bunch of Luke training tops without them on it last season!

I actually quite liked to gamble, and used to bet fairly often. It's never been something I've personally had an issue controlling, but it just hit me that I was helping support a bunch of absolute bastards that I'd much rather go out of business.

[mjmooney]

Interesting programme on R4 this morning: 

The Science of Addiction 

Quote

Addiction specialist Sally Marlow examines the science behind addiction to find out why so many people in Britain are hooked on drugs and alcohol. Neuroscientists now have a sophisticated understanding of the networks in the brain that can pull a person towards addiction and hold them there. Changes in the brain also help to explain why it can be so incredibly hard to quit. But brains don't act in isolation, and neuroscience doesn't explain everything. Why do some people get hooked in the first place while others, who use drugs recreationally, do not? How much of addiction is genetic, and how much does free will play a role? What about our social environments and life experiences? Addiction specialists have a good understanding of the complex web of factors that drive people towards addiction and know which treatments work. So why are addiction rates for many drugs at an all-time high? Does society even want to find the answers? Sally talks to some of the scientists who wrestle with these questions and to Mel, John, Lavinia and Kevin who reflect on their own experiences of addiction and recovery. 

 

Edited September 24, 2019 by mjmooney

[wilko154]

Have to agree with the FUT thing. I've never actually spent money on packs, but the temptation is always there. I've heard some pretty bad stories about kids getting into it though, spending money on their parents credit/debit cards and racking up enormous bills with no clear knowledge of what they are doing, all in the act of hoping to pack a Messi, Ronaldo or team of the week player.

Since I've been playing FUT I've always worked hard building a team from scratch, adding decent players by grinding out games to accumulate coins. However playing online games against teams where people have blatantly spent 100's-1000's on packs and have the best team going is infuriating, especially in the first few weeks. I can see how people/kids can quickly get drawn into spending money on the hunt for players to sort their team out after getting battered 7-0 online.

It may sound stupid to some people, but with gaming as an addiction companies like EA abuse the use of FUT knowing that people will fall into the trap.

For those that do spend a lot of money on it each year, give it a go this year building a team without spending any 'real money'. It's infuriating, hard but incredibly rewarding.

 

Would also like to echo the appreciation for @kent_villa & @Rugeley Villa posts. Incredibly interesting insight into addiction.

[KentVillan]

Struggling badly at the moment. Does anyone have any tips or personal experiences of how to snap out of a bad run (feel free to DM if don't want to share publicly)? I feel like I'm deep in the cycle at the moment, like an abusive relationship or something. It's so **** irrational.

Have people tried antidepressants as a way of easing your way into sobriety? Is rehab worth the money?

[AVFCDAN]

Struggling a bit with my gambling at the moment. I had pretty much knocked it on the head over the last couple of years but somehow find myself having little online casino sessions at random times over the last few months. I'm treading a fine line at the moment having lost quite a bit of money that I really shouldn't be losing. Some people may remember that I've only just recently bought my own place and obviously taking on all the responsibility that comes with living by yourself, its almost like my demons have come back out again just to test me at the worst possible time.

I struggle to even pin down what kind of problem gambler I am because I can go 2 weeks without even thinking about it but then after a few drinks ill say to myself just a cheeky 20 and then I can't stop until I've lost more than I wanted to. It doesn't really help that I seem to lose 90% of the time, someone must be winning right? 

 

[Chindie]

3 minutes ago, AVFCDAN said:

It doesn't really help that I seem to lose 90% of the time, someone must be winning right? 

Yes. The gambling company.

[AVFCDAN]

1 hour ago, Chindie said:

Yes. The gambling company.

Of course but people do actually win as well. Long term obviously not (well not at fixed odds games anyway) but even in the short term I don't win. When I am up I just gamble until I'm not. It really is a self destructive trait and something most of us fellow gambling addicts seems to suffer with. Its not even about the money its about the emotions of winning and losing.

[lapal_fan]

24 minutes ago, AVFCDAN said:

Of course but people do actually win as well. Long term obviously not (well not at fixed odds games anyway) but even in the short term I don't win. When I am up I just gamble until I'm not. It really is a self destructive trait and something most of us fellow gambling addicts seems to suffer with. Its not even about the money its about the emotions of winning and losing.

You're right, someone will win a few hundred/a few grand on those things.  

But, if you've put money in already (to the said amounts possible to win), and haven't already won, you're no more likely to be that winning ticket than you were when you first started, in reality, you're more likely to just keep mindlessly putting money into a machine that is designed and built to take your money.

Gambling is only worth it if you win big right?  So if you want to gamble to win big, you've got to stake small, otherwise the potential winnings are negligible.  I bet you wouldn't bother gambling if the potential winnings were £15, which is what happens when you keep putting money into a machine.  You're whittling away the big gains.  

You need to stop now, because the reality isn't that you'll make it back, the reality is that you'll dump twice as much money away, that you could have spent on a good holiday, a years worth of insurance, a few mortgage payments, savings for something you like or need, a new car... something of value. 

I never gamble, unless the potential winnings are really big, and the fee to gamble is small, but the chances of me winning are slim.  I'm going to Vegas on Saturday, I'll gamble maybe $20 the entire time I'm there, probably trying to win a car I'll never drive   

But that's my limit I've set, and I'll stick to it. 

You won't win life changing sums of money, you'll just spend money you actually have, on something that is unattainable.  Good luck to you!  

[Genie]

2 hours ago, Chindie said:

Yes. The gambling company.

This is it.

You have to remember, absolutely every slot and game in the casino pays out less than 100% of what it gives. Whilst you might hit a 1 off profit if you are to play longer term you will certainly lose overall. The casino has the long term edge.

 

[Genie]

1 hour ago, AVFCDAN said:

Of course but people do actually win as well. Long term obviously not (well not at fixed odds games anyway) but even in the short term I don't win. When I am up I just gamble until I'm not. It really is a self destructive trait and something most of us fellow gambling addicts seems to suffer with. Its not even about the money its about the emotions of winning and losing.

I know this is incredibly easy to say, but it doesn't sound like you get any enjoyment from it even if you have a win. Couple that with the fact you know you're going to lose long term if you keep playing.

Have you looked at self exclusion? You can ask the casino to block you permanently or for a period of time.

[AVFCDAN]

15 minutes ago, Genie said:

I know this is incredibly easy to say, but it doesn't sound like you get any enjoyment from it even if you have a win. Couple that with the fact you know you're going to lose long term if you keep playing.

Have you looked at self exclusion? You can ask the casino to block you permanently or for a period of time.

There is some momentary enjoyment but its not really about the financial gain because I'm well aware I'm losing short and long term. However I'm still doing it for some reason, but that's addiction I guess.

Unfortunately there are hundreds of online casinos so although I am self excluded from a lot of them I can just find a new one to sign up to once the pain of losing money has gone again.

I feel like I've hit rock bottom with it again and don't have any immediate plans to do it again especially before Christmas, i'll check in again in a month or so and hopefully say I'm 5 weeks cleans. I have to stress that I haven't lost any money I couldn't afford to lose but why piss away hundreds of pounds on nothing, it just doesn't make sense to do it.

Edited November 12, 2019 by AVFCDAN