Bolton Wanderers & Bury thread

[Genie]

8 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

Why is Sky to blame? 

And don't you think that NSWE are also greedy? Who isn't greedy? 

It looks to me like both clubs have been very badly run.  We were almost there last year. Instead of blaming everyone in the world, I think we should look at those clubs and see how they have fu**ed things up for themselves. 

I agree with this. Obviously people are looking for someone to blame but this is 90% down to the owner and his senior leaders running the club day to day.

[John]

These owners were/are looking at getting the best deal for themselves, rather than for the clubs and fans.

Debbie Jevans and the EFL have not been helpful in letting things carry on without doing anything significant in the summer and now imposing tight deadlines for a sale that are dependent on these pitiless owners being willing to sell to a prospective buyer of their choice.

Such a sorry state of affairs. The owners are to blame for asset stripping as are the EFL for allowing them to pass their ludicrous "fit and proper test" when they are so clearly neither!

[kurtsimonw]

Something needs to change in a big way. 

The idea of stumping up a year or twos running costs as deposit, as someone mentioned earlier, would be a start. 

[Genie]

18 minutes ago, kurtsimonw said:

Something needs to change in a big way. 

The idea of stumping up a year or twos running costs as deposit, as someone mentioned earlier, would be a start. 

I believe any new owners have to show the EFL that they have the money in the bank to fulfil this season's fixtures in full before they'll approve the purchase.

I guess after this year they are free to run it into the ground which is the problem...

Edited August 28, 2019 by Genie

[Zatman]

40 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

Why is Sky to blame? 

And don't you think that NSWE are also greedy? Who isn't greedy? 

It looks to me like both clubs have been very badly run.  We were almost there last year. Instead of blaming everyone in the world, I think we should look at those clubs and see how they have fu**ed things up for themselves. 

Sky grossly inflated a market  which gives gullible clubs an opportunity of a lifetime. Sky have been a poison on English lower leagues 

[Genie]

2 minutes ago, Zatman said:

Sky grossly inflated a market  which gives gullible clubs an opportunity of a lifetime. Sky have been a poison on English lower leagues 

Vast majority of the premier league income comes from overseas TV companies doesnt it? Premier league sell the rights to the highest bidders.

[Mic09]

9 minutes ago, Zatman said:

Sky grossly inflated a market  which gives gullible clubs an opportunity of a lifetime. Sky have been a poison on English lower leagues 

so it's the gullible clubs who are responsible.

If I gave you a million £ and you wasted it on drugs and hookers, is that my fault? Or would I be considered a charitable person?

[cyrusr]

5 hours ago, delboy54 said:

I cannot understand most of the financial con jobs going on behind Bury FC, but the link below shows just how convoluted it was (hope the link works). It does make you wonder just how useless you have to be to actually fail the EFL "fit and proper person" test.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/aug/27/bury-historic-club-football-league-financial-ruins

So sorry about Bury FC awful for their supporters and proud history to end up like this.....shocking for this happen when the premier League is awash with so much money....Bolton next....who is going to be after Bolton?

 

This part struck me as particularly worrying

Quote

That appeared to be a diplomatically worded signal that they had been quite appalled by what they had found in the ruins of a stalwart EFL club. In particular, alongside the insolvency which resulted in a company voluntary arrangement (CVA) denying suppliers, HMRC and other creditors 75% of the money Bury owed them, and the still outstanding wages due to players who won promotion last season, was a mortgage on Gigg Lane which Campbell and Newman appear to have found repellent.

The mortgage was taken out in stages by the previous owner, Stewart Day, who in December, as his own property empire was about to collapse into insolvency, sold the club to Steve Dale for £1.

The lender, a firm based in Crosby called Capital Bridging Finance Solutions (“Capital”), is now owed £3.7m. Capital in turn mortgaged Gigg Lane, most homely of football grounds, to a company based in Malta whose own lenders were eight companies registered in the tax haven of the British Virgin Islands. As revealed in the Guardian, large portions of the borrowed money never came to Bury at all, because 40% was paid as “introduction fees” to unnamed third parties.

Day justified that by saying it enabled a low interest rate, understood latterly to be 6%, but it is safe to say that one would not expect to find an arrangement like that on Bury’s home ground. That – along with another mortgage on the social club and what they politely described as “the overall financial state of the club” – was perhaps a major reason for Campbell and Newman deciding they did not really need the steaming mess at Bury in their currently prospering lives.

40% introduction fee?! That is farcicle. 

It also links to another article last month stating that the Bury takeover went through without full Football League approval: 

Quote

In normal takeovers a prospective buyer is notified to the EFL in advance for these checks, including on the “source and sufficiency of funds”, and the league will block a takeover if it is not satisfied that the money is there. The EFL regulations state that “up to date future financial information” must be submitted by a club “as far in advance of the change of control as reasonably possible” or, if that is not reasonably practicable, within 10 working days after the takeover.

Dale, however, did not undergo any part of that process before his takeover and even now, seven months into his ownership of Bury, he has still not provided the EFL with information it requires to be satisfied that he has the money to fund the club.

Then you get stuff like this from the owner... 

Comes across like he doesn't give a damn. Not clear why he even bought the club, other than as a quick buck. Serious, serious review needed into the "fit and proper test". It feels like the EFL could have prevented this months ago. 

[villa4europe]

20 minutes ago, Zatman said:

Sky grossly inflated a market  which gives gullible clubs an opportunity of a lifetime. Sky have been a poison on English lower leagues 

the PL being a separate entity to the EFL arguably more so

they aren't going to share that wealth

 

[kurtsimonw]

30 minutes ago, Zatman said:

Sky grossly inflated a market  which gives gullible clubs an opportunity of a lifetime. Sky have been a poison on English lower leagues 

Not true at all. 

In the past decade, Bury have paid a fee for one player. Despite inflated fees, that player isn't even in their top 15 transfers. 

In the past 2 years alone, they've made their 5th and 6th biggest ever sales. 

In the case of Bury, its not really cost them anymore, but it's meant more clubs can afford to take a punt on their players, and they've gotten bigger transfer fees than they otherwise might have. 

This Sky myth is getting a bit boring and old. 

Edited August 28, 2019 by kurtsimonw

[Mark Albrighton]

Judging on the clip of the Bury owner’s interview, I can only assume that the fit & proper test doesn’t begin with something like “Question 1 - Do you have any particular interest in football?”.

Question 2 could be a bit trickier, something like “When were you first made aware of the existence of the football club you are looking to buy?”.

Might help a bit in the filtering out process.

[Paddywhack]

I tried to buy a pie in the upper north before the Bournemouth game but they were unable to sell them because they were all cold for some reason.

Sky up to their old tricks again.

[Dodgyknees]

1 hour ago, Mic09 said:

Why is Sky to blame? 

And don't you think that NSWE are also greedy? Who isn't greedy? 

It looks to me like both clubs have been very badly run.  We were almost there last year. Instead of blaming everyone in the world, I think we should look at those clubs and see how they have fu**ed things up for themselves. 

I said **** sky. Did you see their countdown to destruction?

Sky is a circus and their "reporting", and it shocks me they didn't have Skybet offering odds on the first fan to cry, is what is wrong with football. Are they directly to blame? No. Are they a shot of poison in the arm? Yes.

Dale paid £1 and wants £2m, that's equal to NSWE? Sure.

There isn't just one level of greed. A person who eats one pie isn't the same as somebody who sneeks in overnight and raids the fridge, leaving nothing for others.

Edited August 28, 2019 by avfcDJ

[Mic09]

11 minutes ago, avfcDJ said:

I said **** sky. Did you see their countdown to destruction?

Sky is a circus and their "reporting", and it shocks me they didn't have Skybet offering odds on the first fan to cry, is what is wrong with football. Are they directly to blame? No. Are they a shot of poison in the arm? Yes.

Dale paid £1 and wants £2m, that's equal to NSWE? Sure.

There isn't just one level of greed. A person who eats one pie isn't the same as somebody who sneeks in overnight and raids the fridge, leaving nothing for others.

I didn't see that countdown to destruction. Poor taste, but no different then majority of other media outlets.

I didn't say that's equal to NSWE. You said 'f*** the Greed'. Sure. But everyone is greedy, and there are different levels of it. But blaming 'the greed' is not getting you anywhere.

I just feel that we need to look at bad management of both clubs as 95% of the problem, put them up as a statue for people to see and point fingers at saying 'DO NOT DO THIS'.

Taking the blame away from both clubs is moving away from the main issue here. 

[Dodgyknees]

9 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

I didn't see that countdown to destruction. Poor taste, but no different then majority of other media outlets.

I didn't say that's equal to NSWE. You said 'f*** the Greed'. Sure. But everyone is greedy, and there are different levels of it. But blaming 'the greed' is not getting you anywhere.

I just feel that we need to look at bad management of both clubs as 95% of the problem, put them up as a statue for people to see and point fingers at saying 'DO NOT DO THIS'.

Taking the blame away from both clubs is moving away from the main issue here. 

No other media outlets did it. 

Greed - the problem is the EFL have allowed people like Dale and Xia, among others, to happen on their watch. Their checks are pointless, there is nothing to stop greedy fools from taking advantage of football clubs.

Bad management? Sure. But clubs are chasing the impossible now. The gap between the top - teams paying £500k per week for wages - to the bottom, where teams are going bust for less than 1m - means owners with little idea on sports ownership are taking risks to try and reach the £127m a YEAR promised land. 

No checks, no monitoring of accounts, and no involvement of fans or an overseeing arm of the football body means idiot owners put clubs in this position. And when Sky glamour up £40m sales as something very important, it doesn't help. Tell me, if you are 12 and Sky are raving about big money, who are you going to support?

The whole system is broken, top to bottom.

[useless]

By all accounts this Steve Dale person didn't even have to prove that he had funds when bought Bury for £1 in December, and of the fifty odd companies he's been involved with over forty of them have been liquidated. Surely the EFL have to take some of the blame for letting him buy a football club, you only have to read into the situation with small heath with their owners and the mysterious 'mr king' to realise their checks into football ownership aren't all that stringent.

[delboy54]

48 minutes ago, Shropshire Lad said:

Judging on the clip of the Bury owner’s interview, I can only assume that the fit & proper test doesn’t begin with something like “Question 1 - Do you have any particular interest in football?”.

Question 2 could be a bit trickier, something like “When were you first made aware of the existence of the football club you are looking to buy?”.

Might help a bit in the filtering out process.

Q 3 What is your favourite colour?

Q 4 Where is Bury located in the UK?

[KenjiOgiwara]

Probably a stupid question. But how much money were Bury in debt? Would it be impossible for AVFC to pay it off, assuming it's just a few million, and develop a relationship with Bury for bleeding in young players? Not only can you benefit from such, it would be a PR hollywood story. 

[useless]

I don't think it would just be a case of paying off any debts and they'd suddenly be okay, they probably need someone who's going to continue funding them. Besides and I don't know if this is true, but I have seen suggestions that Steve Dale had offers to buy the club but turned them down because the land that the ground is on is worth more to him.

[Mic09]

37 minutes ago, avfcDJ said:

Bad management? Sure. But clubs are chasing the impossible now. The gap between the top - teams paying £500k per week for wages - to the bottom, where teams are going bust for less than 1m - means owners with little idea on sports ownership are taking risks to try and reach the £127m a YEAR promised land. 

That's not football's problem - that's business. Regardless of whether you are running Manchester United or the local chippy. 

Each business takes risks, each is always looking over the shoulder in fear of not going bust. Some make good moves, some make bad moves. Some owners work the cash register and mop up at the end of the day, others bark orders through the phone.

One thing is the same - each put in money and effort to reach the promised land. For some that's a decent livelihood for their family and a chance to put some bread on the table, for others that's £127m a year. 

If you are an idiot and have chosen a bad strategy (i.e Xia or Dale), I think you need to look in the mirror first of all and admit, 'I was the problem here'.  And realise, that you blew your chance at reaching the promised land.

I feel really sorry for the fans. I do not feel sorry for the people who run the club - it's their fault, and not Sky, EFL, Greed or anything else. 

If people took responsibility for their own actions and put their hand up to say 'It was my fault' maybe, just maybe, we will have more people being able to learn from their own mistakes rather than blaming everyone else around. And I believe that to be true in all walks of life.