Douglas Luiz

[foreveryoung]

He is one of my favorite players, but if we are to go forward, Europe, he ain't gonna be good enough to take us there.

[MrBlack]

Quality player, being asked to play out of position. Furthermore, in a role that even the best dm in the world would struggle with,  given the players Luiz is playing alongside.

He'll demonstrate his quality elsewhere, playing in his preferred position, after he leaves us this summer.

[VillaParkAvenue]

18 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

He is one of my favorite players, but if we are to go forward, Europe, he ain't gonna be good enough to take us there.

If he goes to Roma and we make 6th, we’re likely to meet him again in Europa league. Roma usually finish 5th or 6th so are regulars in that competition.

[VillaChris]

1 hour ago, duke313 said:

How does Liverpool do it then? They play with a midfield 3 with 2 covering their very attacking full backs?

It's usually two defensive midfielders in for their big games e.g. Henderson and Fabiano yesterday and Thiago can also drop deep and dictate player when required. Curtis Jones seems of that ilk aswell so it's only really Harvey Elliott or the Ox playing there that are really that attack minded so a little different to us with McGinn and Ramsey constantly wanting to play on edge of the box which leaves us exposed when McGinn starts passing to the opposition at some point.

[VillaParkAvenue]

3 minutes ago, VillaChris said:

It's usually two defensive midfielders in for their big games e.g. Henderson and Fabiano yesterday and Thiago can also drop deep and dictate player when required. Curtis Jones seems of that ilk aswell so it's only really Harvey Elliott or the Ox playing there that are really that attack minded so a little different to us with McGinn and Ramsey constantly wanting to play on edge of the box which leaves us exposed when McGinn starts passing to the opposition at some point.

This is the main difference imo, Liverpool’s midfield three are very defensive minded while Ramsey and McGinn are quite the opposite.

[Sulberto21]

2 hours ago, duke313 said:

How does Liverpool do it then? They play with a midfield 3 with 2 covering their very attacking full backs?

Their very high back line and Allison is always ready to sweep up. If Martinez was as good as Allison and we also played a high line we’d cut off a lot of counter attacks against us. We play deeper hence there’s more gaps between the lines against us. 

[Indigo]

Yeah I don't really think we play particularly similarly to Liverpool to be honest. There's a similarity in terms of full backs bombing on but beyond that not too much else from what I've seen.

[paul514]

2 hours ago, VillaParkAvenue said:

This is the main difference imo, Liverpool’s midfield three are very defensive minded while Ramsey and McGinn are quite the opposite.

Which is why McGinn must be sold.

[HalfTimePost]

9 hours ago, duke313 said:

How does Liverpool do it then? They play with a midfield 3 with 2 covering their very attacking full backs?

Liverpool do not leave the gaps in the centre of midfield that we do. When they did, we beat them 7-2.

As others have said, they're more defensive minded. But even if you were to assume they play a similar system there with Fabinho sitting and Henderson / Thiago (or previously Wijnaldum) as the 8s, it'd be incredibly rare to see the 8s playing LB and RB in the way Ramsey and McGinn do in Gerrards system of choice.

Mane, Salah and Firmino all press like mad men, with huge stamina and are absolutely relentless. Buendia and (last season's) Watkins would be great for this. But Carney, Bailey, Traore and - crucially - Coutinho are not those players. Whilst Coutinho can be very creative and a massive player for us he is not of the mould that'll make Gerrards system work consistently.

For Liverpool, that front line means that the entire defensive line and midfield can be 10-15 yards further up the pitch rather than dropping back. Bringing the midfielders into midfield. Whereas we need to drop back as we lack stamina, pace, calmness on the ball and quality. So we leave huge gaps in midfield - meaning we struggle to defend and when we get the ball back, we struggle to create opportunities as there is a vast space ahead of us.

So we either clumsily knock the ball around or, if a team presses us from the front, we panic and Mings has to clear it and we get on his case about it.

Edited April 12, 2022 by HalfTimePost

[VillaParkAvenue]

8 minutes ago, HalfTimePost said:

Liverpool do not leave the gaps in the centre of midfield that we do. When they did, we beat them 7-2.

As others have said, they're more defensive minded. But even if you were to assume they play a similar system there with Fabinho sitting and Henderson / Thiago (or previously Wijnaldum) as the 8s, it'd be incredibly rare to see the 8s playing LB and RB in the way Ramsey and McGinn do in Gerrards system of choice.

Mane, Salah and Firmino all press like mad men, with huge stamina and are absolutely relentless. Buendia and (last season's) Watkins would be great for this. But Carney, Bailey, Traore and - crucially - Coutinho are not those players. Whilst Coutinho can be very creative and a massive player for us he is not of the mould that'll make Gerrards system work consistently.

For Liverpool, that front line means that the entire defensive line and midfield can be 10-15 yards further up the pitch rather than dropping back. Bringing the midfielders into midfield. Whereas we need to drop back as we lack stamina, pace, calmness on the ball and quality. So we leave huge gaps in midfield - meaning we struggle to defend and when we get the ball back, we struggle to create opportunities as there is a vast space ahead of us.

So we either clumsily knock the ball around or, if a team presses us from the front, we panic and Mings has to clear it and we get on his case about it.

Good description. We usually don’t press high, probably for reasons mentioned, and the Spurs game wasn’t typical imo.

I don’t really know what Gerrard’s preferred way of playing is — early on it was to surrender possession, sit back and defend in a narrow block.

Then we wanted to have more possession, leading to being vulnerable in transition when the fullbacks are way up, the 8s defend out wide and Dougie alone in the middle.

And now pressing high after all, maybe.

[CVByrne]

10 hours ago, Indigo said:

Some selected tweets from a longer thread below on how tough a job it is for Luiz or whoever plays in his position in this system. Does suggest it's a lot more complicated than just signing a Phillips or Bissouma and presuming that it's job done.

 

 

https://twitter.com/TalkinTactics/status/1513525684299313155?t=pdBFUS7_bObPJEau3vd-Yg&s=19

I think that shows the defensive benefits of the 4 3 2 1 and having Buendia and Coutinho to press the double pivot. It also shows how important 2 strikers is for our attack. 

Te balance is difficult to create with our current set of players and the system of ultra attacking full backs 

Edited April 12, 2022 by CVByrne

[The_Steve]

2 hours ago, CVByrne said:

I think that shows the defensive benefits of the 4 3 2 1 and having Buendia and Coutinho to press the double pivot. It also shows how important 2 strikers is for our attack. 

Te balance is difficult to create with our current set of players and the system of ultra attacking full backs 

The formation does help and the thread is interesting - Luiz is also prone to concentration issues and really needs to get off of set pieces. 
 

If won’t sign a new deal we should cash in. Ultimately, we need two new midfielders. It will be interesting how he plays along with Nakamba. 

[Anything11]

18 hours ago, HalfTimePost said:

For Liverpool, that front line means that the entire defensive line and midfield can be 10-15 yards further up the pitch rather than dropping back. Bringing the midfielders into midfield. Whereas we need to drop back as we lack stamina, pace, calmness on the ball and quality. So we leave huge gaps in midfield - meaning we struggle to defend and when we get the ball back, we struggle to create opportunities as there is a vast space ahead of us.

So we either clumsily knock the ball around or, if a team presses us from the front, we panic and Mings has to clear it and we get on his case about it.

 

Interestingly we were operating like this for large portions of that first half against Tottenham and we looked good. Inevitably it failed in transition when we lost the ball or Mings just punted it into no one.

[VillaParkAvenue]

6 hours ago, Anything11 said:

 

Interestingly we were operating like this for large portions of that first half against Tottenham and we looked good. Inevitably it failed in transition when we lost the ball or Mings just punted it into no one.

Villa normally don't play with a high line, Martinez would have to be higher up the pitch and ready to sweep. Not sure he's comfortable with that.

[CVByrne]

1 hour ago, VillaParkAvenue said:

Villa normally don't play with a high line, Martinez would have to be higher up the pitch and ready to sweep. Not sure he's comfortable with that.

To play a high line you need a full team press, so forwards and midfield pressing high and the defensive line pushed up high to compact the space. Keeper needs to be quick and a good sweeper. 

[CVByrne]

23 hours ago, The_Steve said:

The formation does help and the thread is interesting - Luiz is also prone to concentration issues and really needs to get off of set pieces. 
 

If won’t sign a new deal we should cash in. Ultimately, we need two new midfielders. It will be interesting how he plays along with Nakamba. 

Just think about the help Luiz would have if Buendia was in a 10 position instead of Ings in a Striker position. Nobody on the pitch has a defensive workrate as high as Buendia. If he was taller he'd be an incredible 8. 

[The_Steve]

30 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

Just think about the help Luiz would have if Buendia was in a 10 position instead of Ings in a Striker position. Nobody on the pitch has a defensive workrate as high as Buendia. If he was taller he'd be an incredible 8. 

I do think that would help mitigate - play Coutinho and Emi as the 10s behind Ings and drop Watkins. 

[CVByrne]

15 minutes ago, The_Steve said:

I do think that would help mitigate - play Coutinho and Emi as the 10s behind Ings and drop Watkins. 

The problem was we weren't scoring when we played that formation. The balance is something we can't properly achieve with the current squad of players.

[duke313]

43 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

The problem was we weren't scoring when we played that formation. The balance is something we can't properly achieve with the current squad of players.

I think it was also that Coutinho and Buendia were getting in each others way.  why does he have to play two 10s anyway?  I get he wants the narrow formation so the full backs can provide the width, but he could still play to wide players that cut in on their stronger foot which would still give the full backs room to.  Coutinho right footed on left and Bailey left footed on right.

[RichiBoi11]

Luiz is a strange one, as he's almost certainly leaving this summer. If he goes somewhere and continues to play as a 6 I think he'll largely stagnate and we will all think it's money earned for his sale. If however he goes to the right team and they play him as an 8 I think we'll all end up thinking we've been robbed and sold him on the cheap.