saturdaygig Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 3 hours ago, ender4 said: the individuals can hold the shares forever if needed. That won't work though. They had to do a lot of buying to push the price up, and if they all hold, the price doesn't stay high. It'll drop like a stone as soon are there are no buyers left, and some people inevitably try to cash out. Sellers + no buyers = price crash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam-AVFC Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 10 minutes ago, Davkaus said: The market manipulation with silver and particularly the media's complicity with it is pretty shameless. They don't seem to realise how much scrutiny this is going to place on them. All it does is get more people asking why hedge funds are allowed to manipulate markets when others aren't. It amazes me that anyone is legally allowed to go on TV as an 'independent expert' in the field and promote stocks they own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 3 hours ago, OutByEaster? said: It can be argued that Reddit's campaign on Gamestop is a more effective demonstration of the power of democracy than the US election. The thing that I am not sure about is: was this a good investment for for those that came to Gamestop's defence? If (a big if) the company's financial structure is unsound then what are the repercussions for those that bought stock at higher prices? I stress I would not recognize Gamestop even if I tripped over it. Some hedge fund thinks a company is overvalued and bets against it. In practice I would sell the stock if I owned it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted February 1, 2021 Moderator Share Posted February 1, 2021 In Gamestops' case it would appear the hedge fund was looking to actively pressure their position to the point of putting them out of business. In terms of the reddit thing they decided to turn that on its head, anyone expecting a return on that investment from the reddit group is being unrealistic - they've paid $40 each to cost a hedge fund $2b a day and remind those on Wall Street that the little people still have a voice. Now if we can take that and find ways to exploit the market on other things, crowd shorting could be a massive force for good - imagine the effect of shorting a big fund on the insistence that a $15 minimum wage be put in place - the people who run these funds have a massive and direct impact on government, in terms of direct democratic action, 10 million people with $40 each can change the world. The ideal of course is to force through some sort of change in regulation of these markets and restrict those banking practices that are cancerous in their effect on society for the benefit of a hundred guys with million dollar watches - that's much more difficult, but the fear of a good example is right through Wall Street right now - if people realise how easy it is to play, they'll scare the life out of the major banks. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enda Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 You can’t really teach “Wall St” a lesson though. It’s a concept, not an actual group. Financial markets comprise tens of thousands of people from all over the world. A couple dozen people probably lost their jobs in that hedge fund, but they were managing that money on someone else’s behalf. Trying to maximize return, as they are supposed to. Some teacher union’s pension fund (or whoever) just took the hit, not Wall Street. Most investors don’t give a bollix about one week of volatility in one stock that Reddit picked a fight with. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted February 1, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted February 1, 2021 13 minutes ago, fruitvilla said: The thing that I am not sure about is: was this a good investment for for those that came to Gamestop's defence? If (a big if) the company's financial structure is unsound then what are the repercussions for those that bought stock at higher prices? I stress I would not recognize Gamestop even if I tripped over it. Some hedge fund thinks a company is overvalued and bets against it. In practice I would sell the stock if I owned it. GameStop is a dying company. It's why the hedge fund was shorting as they were, they thought they were onto a dead cert and were pushing to finish the business off. Then someone spotted that they were so heavily shorting it and saw the opportunity. That's where the retail investment has come from, in the main - it's potentially a one off chance to get a huge return IF the game plays out right. A big IF though, and the hedge funds have played every trick in the book - including today trying to direct the market towards a futile silver market, and regularly forcing the price down with 'ladder attacks' - selling small figures between themselves a low prices to artificially drive the market down. It was also the chance to embarrass one of the most insidious parts of the financial system. That has driven a few to thumb their nose at the whole thing and basically say they can afford to sit on a share at a inflated price just to piss off a system that has screwed over everyone, in living memory, and got away with it. Whether it pays off, who knows. Interesting though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 47 minutes ago, saturdaygig said: That won't work though. They had to do a lot of buying to push the price up, and if they all hold, the price doesn't stay high. It'll drop like a stone as soon are there are no buyers left, and some people inevitably try to cash out. Sellers + no buyers = price crash. Exactly. There's a finite supply of cannon fodder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ender4 Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, HanoiVillan said: Exactly. There's a finite supply of cannon fodder. There is also a finite amount of shares and the hedge fund has to buy around 71 million shares to get out of their position (and pay $2 billion per day) until they buy 71 million shares from somewhere. The hedge fund will obviously get out of their fix, and those left with GameStop shares at the end will be screwed... but in the meantime, it’s massive problem time for the hedge fund. To the point we are seeing them carry out illegal activities, knowing that the fines they get will be less than the cost of the GameStop problem. Edited February 1, 2021 by ender4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 30 minutes ago, ender4 said: There is also a finite amount of shares and the hedge fund has to buy around 71 million shares to get out of their position (and pay $2 billion per day) until they buy 71 million shares from somewhere. The hedge fund will obviously get out of their fix, and those left with GameStop shares at the end will be screwed... but in the meantime, it’s massive problem time for the hedge fund. To the point we are seeing them carry out illegal activities, knowing that the fines they get will be less than the cost of the GameStop problem. What illegal activities are you referring to here? (I haven't been following the story today) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainy316 Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 Took a look on Reddit to see what’s going on and it looks like they’re all trying to push AMC Entertainment up similarly to GameStop. Not sure what would need to happen for that though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ender4 Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 12 hours ago, HanoiVillan said: What illegal activities are you referring to here? (I haven't been following the story today) They announced on media that they had closed their short position, but looking at the volume traded that was impossible - they could have closed a small % of their short position, but nowhere near all of it. Then they tried to manipulate the market by launching ads on every media outlet about how GME is finished and the short position has ended. Why would you pay for ads to announce this if you had no interest in that stock anymore? They launched fake stories that WallStreetBets were all piling into silver when no-one was. Citadel fund Robin Hood (the largest trading platform for individuals). Robin Hood didn't allow buying of GME for over a day, and then limited buying to 1-5 shares afterwards. You could sell as much as you wanted. The hedge funds have been trading the same 100 shares back and forth between 2 funds lowering the price. This may be borderline legal if its doesn't technically count as manipulating the market. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 22 minutes ago, ender4 said: They announced on media that they had closed their short position, but looking at the volume traded that was impossible - they could have closed a small % of their short position, but nowhere near all of it. Then they tried to manipulate the market by launching ads on every media outlet about how GME is finished and the short position has ended. Why would you pay for ads to announce this if you had no interest in that stock anymore? They launched fake stories that WallStreetBets were all piling into silver when no-one was. Citadel fund Robin Hood (the largest trading platform for individuals). Robin Hood didn't allow buying of GME for over a day, and then limited buying to 1-5 shares afterwards. You could sell as much as you wanted. The hedge funds have been trading the same 100 shares back and forth between 2 funds lowering the price. This may be borderline legal if its doesn't technically count as manipulating the market. Thanks. The first three sound like fairly sharp practice, I agree. The fourth one is a question of Robinhood's financing, rather than sharp practice. Because trades aren't settled for two days after they are placed, the huge amount of buy orders was causing problems. I posted a thread a page or two ago which describes this in detail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 Now we're going to hear a lot of stories about bag-holders: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 Ha, dickhead. It was almost certainly a violation of the terms of his loan too. Not that they care. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenjiOgiwara Posted February 15, 2021 Author Share Posted February 15, 2021 I think I've never felt so uncomfortable about putting money in stocks. I understand the crazy valuations some what, with these low interest rates, but it's getting stretched now. And that's before we adress every single bloke are suddenly into stocks and option trading. I might lose out a bit, but I'm gonna spend the next couple of years saving cash and sitting still. I'll still DCA paycheck money, but nothing major methinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 I saw some analysis a couple of years ago, that even someone who happened to invest a lumpsum immediately before several crashes but kept it invested would almost certainly be better off than someone who jumped in and out trying to time things. I anticipate dips, but my money is in there for 5-10 years, so I'm keeping my money in the market. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xela Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 Best solution is time in the market, not timing the market. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenjiOgiwara Posted February 15, 2021 Author Share Posted February 15, 2021 1 minute ago, Davkaus said: I saw some analysis a couple of years ago, that even someone who happened to invest a lumpsum immediately before several crashes but kept it invested would almost certainly be better off than someone who jumped in and out trying to time things. I anticipate dips, but my money is in there for 5-10 years, so I'm keeping my money in the market. That's 100% correct. I'm not liquidating anything I already got in play, but there's that and then adding more fuel to the fire. I think risk reward at this point is less than ideal and putting more money in the market at this point feels like pure speculation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xela Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 You hear a lot of adverts now with legal companies saying that if you believe you were mis-sold an investment and lost money, you could get your money back. I bet they won't return any profits they may have made on other 'mis-sold' investments. Just the ones not performing as well as they'd like. I don't know why Banks bother dealing with individuals. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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