Popular Post PaulC Posted October 25, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted October 25, 2021 I think theres been a lot of constructive criticism on here myself. I don't think many are anti-smith but its plain to see what is wrong and Smith doesnt put it right then his job has to be in question. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, DCJonah said: You're absolutely obsessed with talking about Dean Smith's career away from this club. And yet still claim you don't want him sacked. Its very odd. He's the manager of Aston Villa and will be unless things get much worse. which is precisely why the talk is, what it is. Dean has to find a solution to this....this is not just losing games, its the manner of those loses that make the comments from some, so profound. I don't want him sacked either, but I like to think I have reasoning in me, to see why others do. Tuchel was asked a question the weekend and answered, " my job is to find solutions, that is what, I am paid for"......I endorse that, and it doesn't matter, where your team is in the league, and what your dilemma is.......that is the bottom line. Dean has done well to get us where we are, but he will know only too well....that is history now . He has to find a level of reasonable/tangiblle progress for us. Edited October 25, 2021 by TRO 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, PaulC said: I think theres been a lot of constructive criticism on here myself. I don't think many are anti-smith but its plain to see what is wrong and Smith doesnt put it right then his job has to be in question. It really is as simple as that, Paul I have no idea who, or interest in seeking out another manager, I want our current manager, to step up to the plate and demand, yes demand, better from this 11 he chooses. There is no guarantee any other manager can do better. Edited October 25, 2021 by TRO 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaFaninLondon Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 We need performances AND points, it's not either/or. Logically better performances will lead to better results, but we need both. We're 13th in the table and lucky to only be there. I personally would have given Smith the boot by now, but I know our owners aren't as ruthless as that unfortunately. Even so, objectively and rationally the owners have to set a benchmark for him. If I had put the money they had into the club to see us struggling near the bottom I would be fuming. Three of the next four are games we can and should win if we are to salvage what has so far been a fairly mediocre season, and at least avoiding defeat in the next one to stop the rot. 10 points from the next 4 has to be the aim. Our away form especially must improve. But if Smith fails to get, say, 6 points from the next 4 at an absolute minimum surely they would be looking to act with games against Leicester, City and Liverpool after that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 17 minutes ago, Peter Griffin said: I agree that it can be myopic to compare to a single team and we do have to be carful with comparisons as each club will have a different set of influencing factors. However, we all know what is a fair comparison or not. Silly to compare Villa to Chelsea, City, Liverpool, Man United as they are way ahead of us. But yes there will be anomalies. Yesterday, was a prime example. Man Utd have a squad of players far far better than the performance yesterday. Equally we should not compare ourselves to Norwich as they just are happy to yoyo and collect PL money every alternative season. However, there are a group of teams that it is fair to compare Villa to. I would say it is fair to compare us to Everton and West Ham but I am sure others will disagree. But if we drop down the league a bit do we compare ourselves to Brighton, Saints and Palace? Brentford shouldn't be on the comparison list and imo we should be miles ahead of them in the PL. The discourse on VT will not let us compare Villa to any other team if it in any way reflects poorly on Dean and we just get a long list of mitigating factors (excuses) as to why Villa can't be expected to do reach a level of performance which imo we should absolutely be delivering. Pete it depends if the comparison is carte blanche and comparring the whole team or just comparing aspects of a teams play....as an example, nothing wrong in my view in comparing our pressing performance with a top club...in an effort to try and improve. What is myopic is for us to sit there, maintaining everything is rosey in the garden and not debate in a reasoning fashion how we could improve our way out of these dastardly reversals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Griffin Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 13 minutes ago, TRO said: It really is as simple as that, Paul I have no idea who, or interest in seeking out another manager, I want our current manager, to step up to the plate and demand, yes demand, better from this 11 he chooses. There is no guarantee any other manager can do better. Paul / Tro I agree completely. My view on it is that it is good to discuss Smith and what we think etc and that doesn't mean I am anti Smith or want him out. I would love him to stay for many many years but IF he can't do the job he is tasked to do and find the solutions he needs to find then he must be replaced. It is not nice that on VT a cohort will constantly post message accusing people of not wanting Smith, of having an agenda and not supporting the team. I am a Villa fan, I always support the team and all I am doing is discussing Dean Smith on a Dean Smith thread on a Villa forum. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Griffin Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 3 minutes ago, TRO said: Pete it depends if the comparison is carte blanche and comparring the whole team or just comparing aspects of a teams play....as an example, nothing wrong in my view in comparing our pressing performance with a top club...in an effort to try and improve. Good point. There are some things like attitude and effort etc that we should compare ourselves and benchmark against the best in the league Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indigo Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 (edited) 36 minutes ago, Peter Griffin said: I agree that it can be myopic to compare to a single team and we do have to be carful with comparisons as each club will have a different set of influencing factors. However, we all know what is a fair comparison or not. Silly to compare Villa to Chelsea, City, Liverpool, Man United as they are way ahead of us. But yes there will be anomalies. Yesterday, was a prime example. Man Utd have a squad of players far far better than the performance yesterday. Equally we should not compare ourselves to Norwich as they just are happy to yoyo and collect PL money every alternative season. However, there are a group of teams that it is fair to compare Villa to. I would say it is fair to compare us to Everton and West Ham but I am sure others will disagree. But if we drop down the league a bit do we compare ourselves to Brighton, Saints and Palace? Brentford shouldn't be on the comparison list and imo we should be miles ahead of them in the PL. The discourse on VT will not let us compare Villa to any other team if it in any way reflects poorly on Dean and we just get a long list of mitigating factors (excuses) as to why Villa can't be expected to do reach a level of performance which imo we should absolutely be delivering. As I said, I was only really taking umbrage with specific, cherry-picked examples devoid of context as being something that counts against or for Smith, or any manager for that matter. For example you say the bolded piece above, but in the same way people on one side took issue with the specific Leeds comparison from last season, I don't think many would have been given much rope the other way were they to argue that the season was a resounding positive on the whole because we'd managed to overtake a Wolves side we wouldn't have been expected to do better than coming into it. Or in the same way people were shouted down for saying "well we're still ahead of (insert club, namely Arsenal)" as a response to criticism of the turgid form we'd been in - and ultimately still are - since the turn of the year. In any case people are still "allowed" to do so, but equally others are simply allowed to disagree. Works both ways really and is equally as lazy for me whatever side of things you may fall, but of course isn't to say that comparisons to other teams aren't relevant because as you say that is in essence what the league table is. In any case I don't think being below Brighton is a "bad look" to be honest, they're a good side with a lot of wealth behind them that they've made use of. What does and doesn't dictate how well of a season Villa have won't be contingent on how they've done relative to Brighton. Edited October 25, 2021 by Indigo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 26 minutes ago, TRO said: which is precisely why the talk is, what it is. Dean has to find a solution to this....this is not just losing games, its the manner of those loses that make the comments from some, so profound. I don't want him sacked either, but I like to think I have reasoning in me, to see why others do. Tuchel was asked a question the weekend and answered, " my job is to find solutions, that is what, I am paid for"......I endorse that, and it doesn't matter, where your team is in the league, and what your dilemma is.......that is the bottom line. Dean has done well to get us where we are, but he will know only too well....that is history now . He has to find a level of reasonable/tangiblle progress for us. Any talk about improving things is obviously fair game. But there are people talking about his next job in football. that's what I was responding to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Griffin Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 16 minutes ago, VillaFaninLondon said: Even so, objectively and rationally the owners have to set a benchmark for him. If I had put the money they had into the club to see us struggling near the bottom I would be fuming. It may only be a subtle difference but it is Purslow that Smith reports into and it is Purslow that will sack Smith. The ruthless streak will need to come from him. As CEO he reports into the owners and he is tasked to deliver what their objectives are. It would not be a good for Purslow if NSWE were to tell him to sack Smith. It would mean, as far as NSWE are concerned that Purslow screwed up a bit in not deciding it was time Smith left. Purslow should be the one going to NSWE and advising them that Smith's time is up (whenever that time comes). As regards having a ruthless streak Purslow sacked Rafa when he was at Liverpool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 36 minutes ago, Peter Griffin said: I agree that it can be myopic to compare to a single team and we do have to be carful with comparisons as each club will have a different set of influencing factors. However, we all know what is a fair comparison or not. Silly to compare Villa to Chelsea, City, Liverpool, Man United as they are way ahead of us. But yes there will be anomalies. Yesterday, was a prime example. Man Utd have a squad of players far far better than the performance yesterday. Equally we should not compare ourselves to Norwich as they just are happy to yoyo and collect PL money every alternative season. However, there are a group of teams that it is fair to compare Villa to. I would say it is fair to compare us to Everton and West Ham but I am sure others will disagree. But if we drop down the league a bit do we compare ourselves to Brighton, Saints and Palace? Brentford shouldn't be on the comparison list and imo we should be miles ahead of them in the PL. The discourse on VT will not let us compare Villa to any other team if it in any way reflects poorly on Dean and we just get a long list of mitigating factors (excuses) as to why Villa can't be expected to do reach a level of performance which imo we should absolutely be delivering. What about when people make up things? Like when you claimed that midtable teams generally only lose to the top clubs? Or as others have said, that midtable teams are consistent or only lose when they're outplayed? And use these made up expectations as a way to say we aren't doing as well as we should. We've got people diminishing last years achievements because it didn't fit their specific criteria of how to get 55 points. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 24 minutes ago, VillaFaninLondon said: We need performances AND points, it's not either/or. Logically better performances will lead to better results, but we need both. We're 13th in the table and lucky to only be there. I personally would have given Smith the boot by now, but I know our owners aren't as ruthless as that unfortunately. Even so, objectively and rationally the owners have to set a benchmark for him. If I had put the money they had into the club to see us struggling near the bottom I would be fuming. Three of the next four are games we can and should win if we are to salvage what has so far been a fairly mediocre season, and at least avoiding defeat in the next one to stop the rot. 10 points from the next 4 has to be the aim. Our away form especially must improve. But if Smith fails to get, say, 6 points from the next 4 at an absolute minimum surely they would be looking to act with games against Leicester, City and Liverpool after that. I would be interested to know why you think he should go?....do you just dislike him?, don't believe in him? or is it driven by results? Personally, I like the guy, but I do have reservations about certain aspects of his persona.....equally, though, I do not see a ready made solution out there, "oven ready" to take over. I am in favour of him addressing the issues and fighting through it.....if that's possible. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAMAICAN-VILLAN Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 (edited) 46 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said: I wouldn’t be surprised if we win the next 2. Momentum can change quickly in football. Change the shape, Bailey starts, home advantage for next one, a bit of luck. Before you know it we’re all happy going in to next international break. We have a tendency to turn into prime Bayern Munich, under Deano when least expected, and chips are down. Let's hope this is the case again for all concerned. Edited October 25, 2021 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 14 minutes ago, DCJonah said: Any talk about improving things is obviously fair game. But there are people talking about his next job in football. that's what I was responding to. you have to remember, some fans never wanted him in the first place. When we lose badly or win well, will encourage fans on either side to come out and proclaim. We have to accept that right now, is not the best place to be in and inevitably folk will have their day in the sun. We all know what needs to happen....Dean needs to find a solution, and all this blow over. you must know by now, I defended Steve Bruce against the chop, (even with mixed feelings) for as long as until I recognised maybe its time up......I would do exactly the same with Dean. I don't like changing managers, I believe in sustainability, first and foremost. they deserve a chance to get things right. However, Owners will asked questions and how they are answered will also have a bearing of how much time and support a manager has. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAMAICAN-VILLAN Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 Elmo, Fair play. Love that he is still very supportive of us. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreveryoung Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 1 minute ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said: Elmo, Fair play. Love that he is still very supportive of us. Strange he feels the need to comment and back Smith up. Why not just a positive sentence, instead of hinting, "I'm sure Smith will do better and start winning games". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreveryoung Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 5 hours ago, DCJonah said: What do you class as a very long time? We got 55 points last year, best season the club has had in over a decade, ending the season with back to back wins against Spurs and Chelsea. The end of the season was still poor. Purslow was still disappointed with it, is he wrong too? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 1 hour ago, Peter Griffin said: At what stage is it fair to compare us to other teams. After all, the competition we participate in is between us and the other teams. The better we do in comparison to the other teams determines who wins the better prize Why would we compare ourselves to other teams who may be doing brilliantly or may be doing terribly? It's utterly pointless. The only thing that matters is where Aston Villa finish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 5 minutes ago, foreveryoung said: Strange he feels the need to comment and back Smith up. Why not just a positive sentence, instead of hinting, "I'm sure Smith will do better and start winning games". He hasn't backed Smith up at all there? It isn't even about the manager. People just love to twist a narrative He's saying it was a shit game but there's a silver lining that everyone is fit and things will improve (obviously, the performance was shit). He then says the next 2 games are massive for us. Seems.... strangely sensible, for a Villa fan. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Griffin Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 12 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said: Elmo, Fair play. Love that he is still very supportive of us. Fair play to Elmo, that is thoughtful. He must have had a good relationship with Deano 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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