Dean Smith

[Zatman]

4 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

Gotta respectfully disagree here; I don't think Chester would have been physically up to the PL at all. I understand the argument that Bruce did him no favours by playing him past breaking point, but the point here is *he was close to breaking point*. The PL is so much more physically demanding than the Championship, especially for teams down the bottom who are defending most of the time; I don't think he could have done anything anyway. 

I dont think Chester would have done well starting in top flight but he could have been an Elmo type squad player and then wouldnt have had to spend money on say Engels for example

Edited April 14, 2023 by Zatman

[Mark Albrighton]

16 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

Gotta respectfully disagree here; I don't think Chester would have been physically up to the PL at all. I understand the argument that Bruce did him no favours by playing him past breaking point, but the point here is *he was close to breaking point*. The PL is so much more physically demanding than the Championship, especially for teams down the bottom who are defending most of the time; I don't think he could have done anything anyway. 

 

12 minutes ago, Zatman said:

I dont think Chester would have done well starting in top flight but he could have been an Elmo type squad player and then wouldnt have had to spend money on say Engels for example

Fair enough point, HV. Zatman gets to the heart of what I mean.

But from a Villa perspective and playing very much playing a hypothetical devils advocate, if Chester isn’t run into the ground, do we then go and bring Mings in on loan? Ultimately we’ll never know, I certainly think there’s less chance of it.

Anyway, the point being it was an example of (mis)management by Bruce which it could be argued had a knock on effect with us having to bring in another defender on promotion.

Edited April 14, 2023 by Mark Albrighton

[Villa_Vids]

On 11/04/2023 at 21:15, Mark Albrighton said:

I assume you will stick this caveat in any post you make praising Emery or any of our players?

Because guess what - they’re paid to do well too.

Watkins is doing well with the old goal scoring ain’t he? Well too ****ing right, that’s what he’s paid for. Oh another clean sheet is it Emi? Yeah let me know when you’re doing it for free.

I also fail to see the undue emotion and sentiment in @Don_Simon’s posts. 

I don’t believe Smith could get a better job than this, but it’s not that far fetched that he got this (clearly not, because it’s happened). We got over the line with him in charge when we looked dead and buried, it’s not unrealistic it could happen again.

No I won't be sticking to that caveat - because I didn't use it while Smith was managing here or for our other ex coaches/players. I'm a passionate supporter not a disinterested owner. But looking back - he was paid to do a job and he achieved it. The truth is Dean wasn't managing Villa for free and/or as an act of goodwill. He was employed to complete the immediate objectives set for him - which he acknowledged and achieved. And as of yet, he has failed to replicate those "achievements" at either Walsall, Brentford or Norwich. 

Smith was adored by all of us for his success, everybody agrees with that fact and I don't deny it. I celebrated each and every one of his victories and achievements! I respect Dean for playing his part in our journey back to where we truly belong, reconnecting the team to the fanbase and fostering a healthy mentality within the squad whilst reducing the age of the squad - not only the obvious "Promotion" or "Survival". He was a vital cog in our recent progression but he failed to kick us on without Jack. That is a plain fact. We were heading for relegation under Smith, back to square one for all his apparent "achievements". 

I'm sorry that I can't be disingenous with my opinion/feelings and spin sugar-coated lies to appease and comfort people. Villa are better than promotion or survival IMO, we have a competitive right to be a top 8 club - competing for honours. We ain't Birmingham City. I believe Smith has been fortunate to land a Premier League job based on the last 18 months or so, granted it is a short term deal and with a club in free-fall. But fair play to him. DS always struck me as a long term guy who could develop a good crop of players and the environment - not sure he is a firefighter. It will be interesting to see how it develops for him at Leicester. It is a win-win situation for DS IMO.

Edited April 14, 2023 by Villa_Vids

[Villa_Vids]

I'm tempered by the Smith love-in because I give a lot of credit to NSWE for our rise too. My belief is the guy above the manager are truly the ones that make a difference (NSWE), without them Smith is still at Brentford and we are potentially a League 1 club. Without NSWE - Jack leaves for three million plus Josh Onomah. And so on and so forth.  NSWE deserves a lot of credit for sticking by Dean through some lean times too. His team had an awful record without Jack Grealish - that is the sign of a poor top flight coach IMO.

[Mark Albrighton]

2 minutes ago, Villa_Vids said:

No I won't be sticking to that caveat - because I didn't use it while Smith was managing here or for our other ex coaches/players. I'm a passionate supporter not a disinterested owner. But looking back - he was paid to do a job and he achieved it. The truth is Dean wasn't managing Villa for free and/or as an act of goodwill. He was employed to complete the immediate objectives set for him - which he acknowledged and achieved. And as of yet, he has failed to replicate those "achievements" at either Walsall, Brentford or Norwich. 

Smith was adored by all of us for his success, everybody agrees with that fact and I don't deny it. I celebrated each and every one of his victories and achievements! I respect Dean for playing his part in our journey back to where we truly belong, reconnecting the team to the fanbase and fostering a healthy mentality within the squad whilst reducing the age of the squad - not only the obvious "Promotion" or "Survival". He was a vital cog in our recent progression but he failed to kick us on without Jack. That is a plain fact. We were heading for relegation under Smith, back to square one for all his apparent "achievements". 

I'm sorry that I can't be disingenous with my opinion/feelings and spin sugar-coated lies to appease and comfort people. Villa are better than promotion or survival IMO, we have a competitive right to be a top 8 club - competing for honours. We ain't Birmingham City. I believe Smith has been fortunate to land a Premier League job based on the last 18 months or so, granted it is a short term deal and with a club in free-fall. But fair play to him. DS always struck me as a long term guy who could develop a good crop of players and the environment - not sure he is a firefighter. It will be interesting to see how it develops for him at Leicester. It is a win-win situation for DS IMO.

Ok, so you won’t use the “he was paid to do that job” caveat because you don’t really want to. It was a completely redundant comment you made as they’re all paid to do a job. I think you just threw it in because you wanted to undermine Smith in some cheap way.

If you truly believe that Smith was adored by all us for his success then you were at best a casual observer of this thread.

I don’t care what you think about Dean Smith’s career, I don’t know what you think are the “sugar coated lies” or who needs comforting. I can assure I don’t. Dean did a great job for us, that others failed at. Yes he did much, much better when he had Grealish and he had great owners in NWSE. The same Grealish and great owners that Bruce failed with (yes, they were here at the tail end of his time here…but they were still here). 

We might be historically a top 8 club, but that doesn’t mean it was a given that we would return. And being a top 8 club is not something we have been for many a year. So this idea that you appear to putting forward that it was somewhat routine doesn’t wash with me. And you are wrong, we do not have a right to be in the upper echelons of the top flight, no club does. It’s that sort of shite that leads to super league talk.

 

As an aside, and not strictly aimed at you - I have never seen such a concerted effort to qualify a manager’s record. 

Dean Smith? Oh he could only do it cos of Jack. Dean Smith? Oh yeah well he had NWSE backing him. Dean Smith? Well Bruce laid the foundations. Dean Smith? Covid saved him. Dean Smith? They didn’t turn on the goal line technology did they…

I’ve said before, Brian Little ended up managing Gainsborough Trinity. He didn’t win another major cup anywhere else. Have you seen his Villa record without Yorke in the team? It gives Smith sans Grealish a run for his money.

I suppose I should think Little wasn’t a very good Villa manager either. Or at least caveat his time to Kingdom come. I suppose I should check out how that Ron Saunders fella did elsewhere, I’m sure he replicated the success he had with us everywhere he went…

[Villa_Vids]

3 hours ago, Mark Albrighton said:

Ok, so you won’t use the “he was paid to do that job” caveat because you don’t really want to. It was a completely redundant comment you made as they’re all paid to do a job. I think you just threw it in because you wanted to undermine Smith in some cheap way.

If you truly believe that Smith was adored by all us for his success then you were at best a casual observer of this thread.

I don’t care what you think about Dean Smith’s career, I don’t know what you think are the “sugar coated lies” or who needs comforting. I can assure I don’t. Dean did a great job for us, that others failed at. Yes he did much, much better when he had Grealish and he had great owners in NWSE. The same Grealish and great owners that Bruce failed with (yes, they were here at the tail end of his time here…but they were still here). 

We might be historically a top 8 club, but that doesn’t mean it was a given that we would return. And being a top 8 club is not something we have been for many a year. So this idea that you appear to putting forward that it was somewhat routine doesn’t wash with me. And you are wrong, we do not have a right to be in the upper echelons of the top flight, no club does. It’s that sort of shite that leads to super league talk.

 

As an aside, and not strictly aimed at you - I have never seen such a concerted effort to qualify a manager’s record. 

Dean Smith? Oh he could only do it cos of Jack. Dean Smith? Oh yeah well he had NWSE backing him. Dean Smith? Well Bruce laid the foundations. Dean Smith? Covid saved him. Dean Smith? They didn’t turn on the goal line technology did they…

I’ve said before, Brian Little ended up managing Gainsborough Trinity. He didn’t win another major cup anywhere else. Have you seen his Villa record without Yorke in the team? It gives Smith sans Grealish a run for his money.

I suppose I should think Little wasn’t a very good Villa manager either. Or at least caveat his time to Kingdom come. I suppose I should check out how that Ron Saunders fella did elsewhere, I’m sure he replicated the success he had with us everywhere he went…

It is not a redundant comment. Undermine Smith? Nope. I have praised him for his work here on many occasions! I see the good in DS but also I have some criticisms. It is clear you only accept praise, you are incapable of acknowledging his failings and weaknesses at Villa. You don't want to know about an alternative perspective on Smith's managerial ability because it will undermine your views about DS. 

I'm not a casual observer to this thread. He is loved by every supporter for his good work at Villa, obviously a few are more critical and challenge the popular opinions. Some of us want Villa to thrive beyond promotion or relegation. 

Since Dean was sacked - I read on this thread and other social media channels - how Norwich were going to be finishing above Villa - How Smith will win the Championship because he is a proven manager at that level - How Smith is going to achieve this and that. Nothing came of it. Then the excuses appeared. The truth is Gerrard & Villa wiped the floor with Smith in both games and I was delighted. We were likely going down under Smith last season but hey ho we don't have a right to be a top flight team...., milk as much money from the club as you want. 

I could easily spin positive stuff about Dean but I would be lying to myself and others. If you are happy to do so - fair play.  It is a choice at the end of the day. No crime in only seeing the good in somebody but don't expect it not to be challenged or questioned. 

I don't believe in the "no divine right" nonsense, it is a lazy excuse for failing. Villa historically and infrastructure wise should be competing for the top eight and upwards in the Premier League. It absolutely has no relationship to the super league, you are missing my point. Striving to be in the top 8 respects our historic standing in the game. We should aspire to be that. Compete with all of our resources to battle within that group for honours. I know it is not a given ffs, I respect the competition of football. I've seen Villa suffer through poor ownership, management, players etc. Randy Lerner damaged this club far more than I think we realise. Lerner had the principle of "no divine right" and it was a death sentence for us. I don't buy it. I'm not excusing poor leadership anymore with empty cliches.

Furthermore, Bruce did fail with the same conditions, Smith succeeded. Yet Smith acknowledged Bruce in the Play Off Final, which you dismiss because it contradicts your view. "Bruce deserves every credit" This is not me, this is from Smith. He is acknowledging the group he inherited. Smith was reportedly on the verge of being sacked before Covid...what is so bad about saying there was an element of luck in the timing and the break served a good purpose to refocus? Smith was heavily reliant on Grealish, backed up by data and stats - he seemingly had no plan B. Do you think Dean Smith would have left Brentford for Villa under Xia? I highly doubt it. Smith was here because of NSWE and their vision. I think the aforementioned is fair and does nothing to rubbish Smith's Villa legacy.

Little and Saunders have nothing to do with Smith. It is a ludicrous comparison. It is just basic spin, deflection and bluster. Desperate straw grasping. 

Equally, I've never seen such a concerted effort to make so many allowances for a manager who is on a downward trajectory. What you don't like is fair criticism on Smith's reign, criticism that might undermines some of the success he achieved or his ability (which it doesn't). You should be Smith's agent, you would be bloody brilliant.

[Thug]

5 hours ago, Villa_Vids said:

It is not a redundant comment. Undermine Smith? Nope. I have praised him for his work here on many occasions! I see the good in DS but also I have some criticisms. It is clear you only accept praise, you are incapable of acknowledging his failings and weaknesses at Villa. You don't want to know about an alternative perspective on Smith's managerial ability because it will undermine your views about DS. 

I'm not a casual observer to this thread. He is loved by every supporter for his good work at Villa, obviously a few are more critical and challenge the popular opinions. Some of us want Villa to thrive beyond promotion or relegation. 

Since Dean was sacked - I read on this thread and other social media channels - how Norwich were going to be finishing above Villa - How Smith will win the Championship because he is a proven manager at that level - How Smith is going to achieve this and that. Nothing came of it. Then the excuses appeared. The truth is Gerrard & Villa wiped the floor with Smith in both games and I was delighted. We were likely going down under Smith last season but hey ho we don't have a right to be a top flight team...., milk as much money from the club as you want. 

I could easily spin positive stuff about Dean but I would be lying to myself and others. If you are happy to do so - fair play.  It is a choice at the end of the day. No crime in only seeing the good in somebody but don't expect it not to be challenged or questioned. 

I don't believe in the "no divine right" nonsense, it is a lazy excuse for failing. Villa historically and infrastructure wise should be competing for the top eight and upwards in the Premier League. It absolutely has no relationship to the super league, you are missing my point. Striving to be in the top 8 respects our historic standing in the game. We should aspire to be that. Compete with all of our resources to battle within that group for honours. I know it is not a given ffs, I respect the competition of football. I've seen Villa suffer through poor ownership, management, players etc. Randy Lerner damaged this club far more than I think we realise. Lerner had the principle of "no divine right" and it was a death sentence for us. I don't buy it. I'm not excusing poor leadership anymore with empty cliches.

Furthermore, Bruce did fail with the same conditions, Smith succeeded. Yet Smith acknowledged Bruce in the Play Off Final, which you dismiss because it contradicts your view. "Bruce deserves every credit" This is not me, this is from Smith. He is acknowledging the group he inherited. Smith was reportedly on the verge of being sacked before Covid...what is so bad about saying there was an element of luck in the timing and the break served a good purpose to refocus? Smith was heavily reliant on Grealish, backed up by data and stats - he seemingly had no plan B. Do you think Dean Smith would have left Brentford for Villa under Xia? I highly doubt it. Smith was here because of NSWE and their vision. I think the aforementioned is fair and does nothing to rubbish Smith's Villa legacy.

Little and Saunders have nothing to do with Smith. It is a ludicrous comparison. It is just basic spin, deflection and bluster. Desperate straw grasping. 

Equally, I've never seen such a concerted effort to make so many allowances for a manager who is on a downward trajectory. What you don't like is fair criticism on Smith's reign, criticism that might undermines some of the success he achieved or his ability (which it doesn't). You should be Smith's agent, you would be bloody brilliant.

Chap, Smith was BRILLIANT for us.

The immediate impact he had on the team was nothing short of miraculous.

As with everything, things need to be freshened up once in a while.  His time with us came to an end, and it was time to move on.

Changing him wasn’t the mistake.  Changing him for a rookie manager with an Ego bigger than his managerial CV was the mistake.

Unai Emery isn’t just a step up, it’s a leap up, and everyone knows that.  Could’ve predicted it to be the case as soon as it was announced.

But the amount of disrespect you’re giving to a manager who won 10 games in a row, and got us immediate promotion, and then kept us up against all odds, and then performed well, only to be sacked after a 5 game losing streak which included some of the best teams in the league… is just ridiculous.

We reached heights in term of sheer excitement under smith, that we have yet to do under Emery - which we will do in due course I’m sure.

But a little respect for the man who got us to the place where we could even dream of attracting someone like Emery wouldn’t go amiss.

[villa4europe]

We weren't going down under Smith, there was a huge overreaction and knicker wetting over our drop in form, we were poor, a few of the players had given up so I was disappointed but not necessarily against sacking him as he'd taken us as far as he could but we weren't going down

[Mark Albrighton]

7 hours ago, Villa_Vids said:

It is not a redundant comment. 

It was a redundant comment. They’re all paid. Everyone knows they’re all paid. Redundant comment.

7 hours ago, Villa_Vids said:

It is clear you only accept praise, you are incapable of acknowledging his failings and weaknesses at Villa. You don't want to know about an alternative perspective on Smith's managerial ability because it will undermine your views about DS. 

No, actually, I recognise the limitations to someone like Dean Smith. I think it was right that he went when he did. I’m not convinced he will keep Leicester up. I don’t think he will spend the rest of his career in the Premier League. I think he will ultimately spend most of his time in the Championship with maybe a promotion or two. I think Leicester is probably about as good a job as he could get, but because I think he could get it, I therefore don’t think he’s lucky.

I, like a couple of others, were calling out your “lucky sod” comment and your attempt to belittle what he did here (“the low bar”). But then you believe we have this god given right to be at a certain level in the football hierarchy, so I guess anything below that isn’t going to register.

7 hours ago, Villa_Vids said:

I'm not a casual observer to this thread. He is loved by every supporter for his good work at Villa, obviously a few are more critical and challenge the popular opinions. 

There have been people who were on his back pretty much throughout his time here. If you haven’t spotted that, I don’t know what to say.
 

7 hours ago, Villa_Vids said:

How Smith will win the Championship because he is a proven manager at that level - How Smith is going to achieve this and that. Nothing came of it. Then the excuses appeared. The truth is Gerrard & Villa wiped the floor with Smith in both games and I was delighted.  

I can’t comment on Norwich, I have little interest in them. It would seem that he didn’t do well, but Norwich aren’t doing particularly well without him now either are they. I think Villa “wiped the floor” with Norwich by the virtue of having superior players. Gerrard wasn’t shit enough and Smith wasn’t good enough to prevent a different outcome. 

I was also pleased that Villa won.
 

7 hours ago, Villa_Vids said:

Furthermore, Bruce did fail with the same conditions, Smith succeeded. Yet Smith acknowledged Bruce in the Play Off Final, which you dismiss because it contradicts your view. "Bruce deserves every credit" This is not me, this is from Smith. He is acknowledging the group he inherited.

I referred to this before in a previous reply to you. He was being magnanimous. Some managers do that, particularly in a moment of triumph. It’s a polite thing to do. 
 

7 hours ago, Villa_Vids said:

Do you think Dean Smith would have left Brentford for Villa under Xia? I highly doubt it. Smith was here because of NSWE and their vision. 

I do think he would have joined under Xia, as it happens.

7 hours ago, Villa_Vids said:

Little and Saunders have nothing to do with Smith. It is a ludicrous comparison. It is just basic spin, deflection and bluster. Desperate straw grasping. 

People seem to like saying “Smith won’t ever do X again. He only achieved X because he had Y.” Like he was only good for us and nowhere else and therefore his achievement has to be qualified. My point is that other, more successful, Villa managers have relied on particular players to get results, they’ve had success here and failed elsewhere. You were talking about blatant double standards previously. Is that not double standards?

7 hours ago, Villa_Vids said:

Equally, I've never seen such a concerted effort to make so many allowances for a manager who is on a downward trajectory. What you don't like is fair criticism on Smith's reign, criticism that might undermines some of the success he achieved or his ability (which it doesn't). You should be Smith's agent, you would be bloody brilliant.

Maybe because he was the first manager in about ten seasons to bring actual happiness to the club. Maybe I and other supporters appreciate that more than others who think challenging for the top six is par for the course.

And thanks, but I don’t think he needs me as his agent. He’s just been appointed by another premier league club, which is something else his critics here said wouldn’t happen. 

I’m kinda bored now, I think this is already conversation is already fairly circular. But reply if you wish but I probably won’t respond.

[Rds1983]

2 hours ago, villa4europe said:

We weren't going down under Smith, there was a huge overreaction and knicker wetting over our drop in form, we were poor, a few of the players had given up so I was disappointed but not necessarily against sacking him as he'd taken us as far as he could but we weren't going down

Calling people's concerns about relegation after losing 5 in a row, only 2 points above the relegation zone and with no settled formation or plan a huge overreaction and knicker wetting is kind of an overreaction in itself. The way players heads were dropping and the (mostly online) negativity around the club was concerning, and we were being dragged into the relegation scrap. We were more than poor, we were awful. Being concerned about relegation was fair, sacking Smith rather than giving him more time to try and turn it around was probably not.

Edited April 15, 2023 by Rds1983

[sharkyvilla]

Dean should also get his fair amount of credit for Jack's improvement and form too, not just the other way round, saying it was all down to Jack.  It's taken almost 2 seasons under Pep to reproduce something close to the same form and he hasn't really done it for England either.

[Tom13]

3 minutes ago, sharkyvilla said:

Dean should also get his fair amount of credit for Jack's improvement and form too, not just the other way round, saying it was all down to Jack.  It's taken almost 2 seasons under Pep to reproduce something close to the same form and he hasn't really done it for England either.

There's one reason he hasn't done it for England - Southgate

[Mantis]

3 hours ago, villa4europe said:

We weren't going down under Smith, there was a huge overreaction and knicker wetting over our drop in form, we were poor, a few of the players had given up so I was disappointed but not necessarily against sacking him as he'd taken us as far as he could but we weren't going down

Disagree - we were in serious danger of being dragged into a full-on, season-long relegation battle. On balance we probably would've stayed up in the end but the decision to get rid of Smith was absolutely the right one, we just got made a hash of getting a good replacement in.

[Tomaszk]

14 hours ago, Villa_Vids said:

I'm tempered by the Smith love-in because I give a lot of credit to NSWE for our rise too. My belief is the guy above the manager are truly the ones that make a difference (NSWE), without them Smith is still at Brentford and we are potentially a League 1 club. Without NSWE - Jack leaves for three million plus Josh Onomah. And so on and so forth.  NSWE deserves a lot of credit for sticking by Dean through some lean times too. His team had an awful record without Jack Grealish - that is the sign of a poor top flight coach IMO.

Ha, Deano made you look a right mug.

Sorry you didn't think he'd be a success and he was a preposterous success.

[villa4europe]

1 hour ago, Rds1983 said:

Calling people's concerns about relegation after losing 5 in a row, only 2 points above the relegation zone and with no settled formation or plan a huge overreaction and knicker wetting is kind of an overreaction in itself. The way players heads were dropping and the (mostly online) negativity around the club was concerning, and we were being dragged into the relegation scrap. We were more than poor, we were awful. Being concerned about relegation was fair, sacking Smith rather than giving him more time to try and turn it around was probably not.

Online negativity and heads dropping that's what did it

We win that wolves game and it's a different story, instead a very vocal part of our fan base reverted to type and gave up, the doom and gloom merchants returned after a few years of not being able to moan about villa

We were sucked in to a myre of our own making

I'd agree that we'd peaked under him and we weren't going to get to where we all wanted to be under him but I disagree we'd have been relegated, relegation fight is maybe different (but then there was fans this season who thought we were in a relegation fight last month) we were in poor form and not competing but there was some outright shit in the league at that point too, we were never as bad as say Norwich or Newcastle were at that point

[maqroll]

I'd have advised Dean to wait until Monday to take over.

[Pinebro]

Not looking good

[Pinebro]

I swear Shakespeare has destroyed him as a manager.

Get together with O'kelly again.

[VillaChris]

He really can't be starting Vardy for remainder of the season, guy is totally done.

Iheanacho might come in with late flurry of goals so bit bemused why DS didn't play him instead. 

Their GD going to take a bit of a hammering here.

[Demitri_C]

Deanos getting destroyed