peterms Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 6 hours ago, bickster said: Europe is in itself a political construct, there is no other reason for it to be considered a continent in its own right It would be an odd definition of Europe that doesn't recognise geography. And it would be an odd interpretation of geography that recognises Israel as in Europe, while the countries that lie between it and Europe are not in Europe. Israel is not a European country. There is a continuing effort to define it as similar to Europe culturally (nb the continuous appropriation by Israel of Arabic cuisine and renaming it as "Israeli" belies that), but this is simply a propaganda exercise. It's a bastard state, occupying a Middle Eastern country. It's European only in the same way that apartheid South Africa was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted May 22, 2019 Moderator Share Posted May 22, 2019 45 minutes ago, peterms said: It would be an odd definition of Europe that doesn't recognise geography. Europe as everyone thinks they understand it has no geographical basis. It does not obey any earth science definition of a continent. It is a political construct. If you think this isn't the case please demonstrate why 46 minutes ago, peterms said: And it would be an odd interpretation of geography that recognises Israel as in Europe, while the countries that lie between it and Europe are not in Europe. No one here has suggested that Israel is in fact in Europe, it plainly isn't. The Arabic region (for want of a better term), however, isn't in Asia or Africa either 49 minutes ago, peterms said: Israel is not a European country. That depends on which Europe you're talking about. The Europe of Eurovision, the Europe of FIFA, The EU, The Council of Europe, which Europe? 51 minutes ago, peterms said: It's a bastard state, occupying a Middle Eastern country. Agreed apart from Middle Eastern being a ridiculous term Out of interest, which continent is Turkey in? Or Georgia or Azerbaijan? Khazakstan even? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 Or even Russia. Is Vladivostok in Europe? The definition of 'Europe' means what ever you want it to mean so many interpretations are available. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAuthority Posted May 23, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted May 23, 2019 There's only ever been, and ever will be one Europe. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seat68 Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Zen Posted May 24, 2019 Share Posted May 24, 2019 On 22/05/2019 at 19:35, Chindie said: A Spaniard, obviously European, going to live in Oslo is going to have a culture shock. What rubbish. I had tapas and red wine just last night. We’re all positively Mediterranean up here now. Hasta la vista, baby! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenjiOgiwara Posted May 24, 2019 Share Posted May 24, 2019 (edited) On 22/05/2019 at 17:37, bickster said: On what exactly? Sorry slow response. Mad week. Well firstly that there isn't a geographically defined Europe, that's a rather inaccurate point IMO. If you look at the information from the UN, or any other organization handling statistics of demographics and what not, Europe is largely agreed upon by everyone. From my recollection I can't think of any definition and description that didn't fall into what it's largely known as, thus there is an agreement there. Secondly, if people wanna be hooked up continental bounderies, geography will be difficult. Fact is that a lot of stuff in life is determined arbitrarily to create order. Now whether you want to believe that or not is a personal choice, but it doesn't change the fact it exists. Cyprus is an interesting case, but I suspect it's European ties has largely to do with its history to Greece. Either way if you adopt the western Russian, western Turkey Europe, Cyprus fits it pretty well. Thirdly, when I studied I was living with a palestinian girl, and I'd argue from the little I know of Israel that their culture is a lot more arabic than people would like to think. From food in Israel isn't Israeli or western, it's palestinian, Jordanean, Libanese, Syrian. You can also argue physical apperance, fanatical religious views, music and what not. The notion that Israel is similar to Europe is just wrong. They do have a fairly western stability, wealth, and sort of a modern democracy (though that's very relative), and so on, but that hardly makes them similar to any nation in Europe. If anything Israel is melting pot, which historially makes sense. Personally I think they should not be in any European contest or coop. They simply don't belong there. And to be fair, technically speaking they don't belong on the land they have stolen either. Edited May 24, 2019 by KenjiOgiwara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted May 24, 2019 Moderator Share Posted May 24, 2019 1 hour ago, KenjiOgiwara said: Well firstly that there isn't a geographically defined Europe, that's a rather inaccurate point IMO. Your opinion appears to be that, just an opinion), you've actually yet to define this Europe you think is well defined Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenjiOgiwara Posted May 24, 2019 Share Posted May 24, 2019 Well if you want me to draw a line on a map, then just Google it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted May 24, 2019 Share Posted May 24, 2019 3 hours ago, KenjiOgiwara said: Sorry slow response. Mad week. Well firstly that there isn't a geographically defined Europe, that's a rather inaccurate point IMO. If you look at the information from the UN, or any other organization handling statistics of demographics and what not, Europe is largely agreed upon by everyone. From my recollection I can't think of any definition and description that didn't fall into what it's largely known as, thus there is an agreement there. Secondly, if people wanna be hooked up continental bounderies, geography will be difficult. Fact is that a lot of stuff in life is determined arbitrarily to create order. Now whether you want to believe that or not is a personal choice, but it doesn't change the fact it exists. Cyprus is an interesting case, but I suspect it's European ties has largely to do with its history to Greece. Either way if you adopt the western Russian, western Turkey Europe, Cyprus fits it pretty well. Thirdly, when I studied I was living with a palestinian girl, and I'd argue from the little I know of Israel that their culture is a lot more arabic than people would like to think. From food in Israel isn't Israeli or western, it's palestinian, Jordanean, Libanese, Syrian. You can also argue physical apperance, fanatical religious views, music and what not. The notion that Israel is similar to Europe is just wrong. They do have a fairly western stability, wealth, and sort of a modern democracy (though that's very relative), and so on, but that hardly makes them similar to any nation in Europe. If anything Israel is melting pot, which historially makes sense. Personally I think they should not be in any European contest or coop. They simply don't belong there. And to be fair, technically speaking they don't belong on the land they have stolen either. You don’t seem so bothered about Australia being part of Eurovision though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted May 24, 2019 Moderator Share Posted May 24, 2019 18 minutes ago, KenjiOgiwara said: Well if you want me to draw a line on a map, then just Google it. Any map you will find of Europe is a political construct, not a continent. Go on, define it, hell even do an image search of Map of Europe, you'll find many different interpretations in the first few results Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenjiOgiwara Posted May 24, 2019 Share Posted May 24, 2019 1 hour ago, LondonLax said: You don’t seem so bothered about Australia being part of Eurovision though. I actually don't watch it, so didn't know. That's utterly bizarre though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenjiOgiwara Posted May 24, 2019 Share Posted May 24, 2019 52 minutes ago, bickster said: Any map you will find of Europe is a political construct, not a continent. Go on, define it, hell even do an image search of Map of Europe, you'll find many different interpretations in the first few results Well that's kinda irrelevant to me. Like I said above some things are decided to create order. If some people can't accept that then they just live in a different world then me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Zen Posted May 24, 2019 Share Posted May 24, 2019 22 minutes ago, KenjiOgiwara said: Well that's kinda irrelevant to me. Like I said above some things are decided to create order. If some people can't accept that then they just live in a different world then me. I think the issue here is that there is no, and can’t be, one, simple definition of Europe, not that anyone is necessarily unwilling to accept the usefulnes of having definitions in the first place. Europe isn’t a separate continent, therefore its borders are necessarily blurry and defined by various social constructs - be they political, social, cultural - that are somewhat arbitrary. I don’t disagree with you that it’s slightly odd to define Israel as being part of Europe by any definition I can imagine, but I can’t just say «it’s not in Europe» without first clearly defining what I mean by that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted May 24, 2019 Moderator Share Posted May 24, 2019 32 minutes ago, Michelsen said: I think the issue here is that there is no, and can’t be, one, simple definition of Europe, not that anyone is necessarily unwilling to accept the usefulnes of having definitions in the first place. Europe isn’t a separate continent, therefore its borders are necessarily blurry and defined by various social constructs - be they political, social, cultural - that are somewhat arbitrary. I don’t disagree with you that it’s slightly odd to define Israel as being part of Europe by any definition I can imagine, but I can’t just say «it’s not in Europe» without first clearly defining what I mean by that. Bingo! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 A useful reminder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted June 5, 2019 Share Posted June 5, 2019 Justice Minister! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 Isn't this supposed to be subtext or something? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted June 18, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted June 18, 2019 The other day they had a rant at the UN about how the UN is obviously biased against them because it has adjudged them in the wing more often than anyone else. Ooh and also demanded foreign political figures be removed from office, like Corbyn and Ilhan Omar, because they're 'anti-Semites'. Israel is a really, really nasty little country. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted June 21, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted June 21, 2019 (edited) The tension build up with Iran appears to be so artificial not even the press, usually salivating for some good war action, can be barely arsed with it. Bolton must be furious. Cockteased his ultimate fantasy and nobody is running with it. His bollocks will be indigo. Edited June 21, 2019 by Chindie 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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