blandy Posted April 6 Moderator Share Posted April 6 13 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: intent counts, to commit what should be regarded as genocide, one of the things I think is important is if the nation involved sets out to commit genocide - Russia has set out to 'regain' Ukraine (as it sees it), casualties will be a byproduct of that, now that doesn't mean they haven't been an aggressor, or that they haven't committed war crimes, but their aim is to control the territory - that's different to the situation with Israel and the civilian population it's targeting - there have been more civilian casualties in Gaza than in Ukraine. Russia is definitely committing genocide. The removal of all those kids, thousands and thousands of them. And the stuff @magnkarl has pointed out too. Completely meets the criteria for genocide. I’ve already posted quite a bit on why Israel is (also) committing genocide, and I agree with your posts in terms of Israel’s actions and those of its troops. Whether either set of leaders, or those of Hamas ever get brought to justice is another matter. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted April 6 Share Posted April 6 (edited) 21 hours ago, OutByEaster? said: They are very different, one is a war, between two nation states using their military forces, the other is the clearing of a civilian population with an embedded group of terrorists by a nation state - they are very different things, that's a simple fact. World war one contained horrendous casualties, but it wasn't genocide, the casualties weren't the point, the point was the territory and the control - it was a war; the point in Gaza is killing anyone who might pose a future threat to Israel, it's about the casualties, it's about killing the people, that's the intent, it's not a war - it's a very different thing. To ignore that is wilful ignorance in an attempt to defend something that shouldn't be defended. Nobody has been talking about military casualties though. We’re talking about Russia’s actions towards the Ukrainian civilian population in occupied / de-occupied areas - so the fact it’s a war between two nation states is irrelevant (e.g. I somehow doubt you’d be fine with Israel declaring war on Lebanon and massacring their entire civilian population). Besides, you were talking about intent - Russia didn’t intend to have a large scale war. They intended to march to Kiev and depose the government within three days, and they went in with death lists of people who had served in the independent Ukrainian armed forces or served the Ukrainian state (local mayors etc). In the areas of Ukraine they occupied they put the civilians through filtration camps, and tortured and executed anyone on those lists, or just people suspected of being Ukrainian nationalists (i.e. anyone who didn’t want to live under Russian rule). And over time they went about erasing Ukrainian culture and language in the places they held. All this is well documented. To claim the Russian intent was not genocide (at least using the definitions being applied to Israel) is ridiculous. I genuinely hope you’re only saying that because you don’t know enough about what happened in Ukraine to make a fair comparison between that and Gaza. Edited April 7 by Panto_Villan 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted April 6 Share Posted April 6 Hopefully I have that person on ignore but is there anyone in the Russia thread trying to deflect/downplay/argue semantics/justify what they are doing or is that just a Israel thread thing? No need to answer that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted April 6 Share Posted April 6 Quote Joaquin Phoenix, Elliott Gould, Chloe Fineman and More Jewish Creatives Support Jonathan Glazer’s Oscars Speech in Open Letter We are Jewish artists, filmmakers, writers, and creative professionals who support Jonathan Glazer’s statement from the 2024 Oscars. We were alarmed to see some of our colleagues in the industry mischaracterize and denounce his remarks. Their attacks on Glazer are a dangerous distraction from Israel’s escalating military campaign which has already killed over 32,000 Palestinians in Gaza and brought hundreds of thousands to the brink of starvation. We grieve for all those who have been killed in Palestine and Israel over too many decades, including the 1,200 Israelis killed in the Oct. 7 Hamas attacks and the 253 hostages taken. The attacks on Glazer also have a silencing effect on our industry, contributing to a broader climate of suppression of free speech and dissent, the very qualities our field should cherish. Glazer, Tony Kushner, Steven Spielberg and countless other artists of all backgrounds have decried the killing of Palestinian civilians. We should all be able to do the same without being wrongly accused of fueling antisemitism. In his speech, Glazer asked how we can resist the dehumanization that has led to mass atrocities throughout history. For such a statement to be taken as an affront only underscores its urgency. We should be able to name Israel’s apartheid and occupation — both recognized by leading human rights organizations as such — without being accused of rewriting history. As the Director of the Auschwitz Memorial, Dr. Piotr M. A. Cywiński, wrote, “’The Zone of Interest’ is not a film about the Shoah. It is primarily a profound warning about humanity and its nature.” We must not reserve this warning for a single group. To preserve our humanity and ensure our mutual survival, we must sound the alarm when any group faces such brutality and acts of erasure. We are proud Jews who denounce the weaponization of Jewish identity and the memory of the Holocaust to justify what many experts in international law, including leading Holocaust scholars, have identified as a “genocide in the making.” We reject the false choice between Jewish safety and Palestinian freedom. We stand with all those calling for a permanent ceasefire, including the safe return of all hostages and the immediate delivery of aid into Gaza, and an end to Israel’s ongoing bombardment of and siege on Gaza. We honor the memory of the Holocaust by saying: Never again for anyone. https://variety.com/2024/film/global/jonathan-glazer-oscars-speech-support-jewish-creatives-open-letter-1235960158/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted April 6 Share Posted April 6 (edited) 2 hours ago, OutByEaster? said: I'm saying that intent counts, to commit what should be regarded as genocide, one of the things I think is important is if the nation involved sets out to commit genocide - Russia has set out to 'regain' Ukraine (as it sees it), casualties will be a byproduct of that, now that doesn't mean they haven't been an aggressor, or that they haven't committed war crimes, but their aim is to control the territory - that's different to the situation with Israel and the civilian population it's targeting - there have been more civilian casualties in Gaza than in Ukraine. It's interesting how you consider deaths in Ukraine a byproduct of a country invading another without provocation, yet when it's done by a country against another of which the elected government in said territory has committed heinous terrorism, it is not? Even when the group in question is known and proven to use civilians as shields, dig tunnels under civilian infrastructure and generally not abide by a single rule of war. Ukraine does, yet you think their civilians aren't being intentionally killed in a genocide. I'm not saying that Israel isn't committing genocide, I'm pointing at the glaring hole in people's definition of genocide when it comes to Palestine while at the same time arguing for other examples (like you just did with Ukraine) not being genocide. All the while the other examples hitting every single point of UN's definition of a genocide, in many cases (like 80k+ children being kidnapped from Ukraine) far worse than Gaza. It reeks of differing standards. Ergo summarum I just think the popularity of the conflict and its champions shouting by far the loudest on both sides make people assume things based on feelings. The UN is doing the same thing, all the while arguing that Russia isn't committing genocide even though the conflict they're embroiled in is pretty much worse in every facet of their definition of genocide. From a legal perspective genocide won't stick. Milosevic bombed Sarajevo for a year straight, caused 100.000 civilian casualties, yet was only sentenced to 33 years on war crimes and crimes against humanity. Whoever ends up being Benny’s lawyer if there’s ever a trial will use Benny’s oldest trick. ‘I’m being held to a different standard because I’m a Jew, yadayada’. In order to stop that argument there needs to be some serious soul searching for a lot of the people shouting genocide. Edited April 6 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted April 6 Share Posted April 6 Just got off the phone with the two people I know in Israel. The mood has changed. Even the far-right news are now saying it’s inevitable that the government will have to leave office shortly. It’s been exasperated by the above incident of a far right idiot driving into protestors against the government. Hopefully we’ll have someone in office who can put the people in charge of this slaughter on trial. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumblerseven Posted April 6 Share Posted April 6 Quote For an act to be classified as genocide, it is essential to demonstrate that the perpetrators had a deliberate and specific aim (dolus specialis) to physically destroy the group based on its real or perceived nationality, ethnicity, race, or religion. Intention to destroy the group's culture or intending to scatter the group does not suffice.[3] Genocidal intent - Wikipedia You can keep screaming for hundreds of pages its genocide its genocide its just your feelings and narrative spinning nothing else just words who hold no weight.. To everyone who actually cares should go and read what south africa provided to support their accusations and prove dolus specialis. I think after that you might be very sceptical of the outcome of that case Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted April 6 VT Supporter Share Posted April 6 They put some money in the meter in Tel Aviv then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted April 6 Share Posted April 6 28 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said: Genocidal intent - Wikipedia You can keep screaming for hundreds of pages its genocide its genocide its just your feelings and narrative spinning nothing else just words who hold no weight.. To everyone who actually cares should go and read what south africa provided to support their accusations and prove dolus specialis. I think after that you might be very sceptical of the outcome of that case Welcome back. I don’t think there will be many here that expect our good friend and ally the murderous regime in Israel to be found guilty. But that’s more about politics than about genocide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAuthority Posted April 8 VT Supporter Share Posted April 8 On 06/04/2024 at 14:35, Tumblerseven said: Genocidal intent - Wikipedia You can keep screaming for hundreds of pages its genocide its genocide its just your feelings and narrative spinning nothing else just words who hold no weight.. To everyone who actually cares should go and read what south africa provided to support their accusations and prove dolus specialis. I think after that you might be very sceptical of the outcome of that case 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted April 8 Share Posted April 8 On 06/04/2024 at 21:35, Tumblerseven said: Genocidal intent - Wikipedia You can keep screaming for hundreds of pages its genocide its genocide its just your feelings and narrative spinning nothing else just words who hold no weight.. To everyone who actually cares should go and read what south africa provided to support their accusations and prove dolus specialis. I think after that you might be very sceptical of the outcome of that case Is this one of those AI experiments that were previously tasked with spotting terrorists? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted April 8 Share Posted April 8 (edited) 4 hours ago, Jareth said: Is this one of those AI experiments that were previously tasked with spotting terrorists? You'd be surprised of how many people are just like this on both sides right across the internet and society as a whole. Villatalk is an oasis of quite intelligent people in a desert of dumb. Edited April 8 by magnkarl 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted April 8 Share Posted April 8 Personally, I think quite a few people would be interested in some missive where there was an attempt to justify or excuse the current civilian death toll in some way. Neither side should rely on just endlessly playing the victim card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa89 Posted April 8 Share Posted April 8 On 06/04/2024 at 21:35, magnkarl said: Hopefully we’ll have someone in office who can put the people in charge of this slaughter on trial. Do you really expect any Israeli government to do that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 (edited) 9 hours ago, villa89 said: Do you really expect any Israeli government to do that? With enough pressure from the US, maybe. It wouldn't be the first time Israel charges high ranking politicians internally, compared to how we treat our own politicians Israeli politicians can be sentenced to 'breach of trust' where they serve time for going against their oath of office. It's why Netanyahu has worked tirelessly to remove power from the courts as he's lined up to take the hit for corruption. Famously Prime Minister Elhud Olmert was sentenced to 6 years in prison for breaching trust in 2015. There's also a wide range of people, from President to knesset members who have or are serving time for the same thing. The Israeli courts are far from favourable to politicians who misuse their office. Ben-Gvir, in example, has already been convicted of inciting racism and supporting a terrorist group. If he's ever tried again he'll have no chance of a reduced sentence. Edited April 9 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted April 9 Moderator Share Posted April 9 Confusingly today there are reports on progress toward a ceasefire and also reports that Netanyahu is ready to launch an offensive on Rafah which would be a humanitarian disaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy Lifeboats Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 1 minute ago, OutByEaster? said: Confusingly today there are reports on progress toward a ceasefire and also reports that Netanyahu is ready to launch an offensive on Rafah which would be a humanitarian disaster. What better bargaining tool that the threat of an offensive or a ceasefire on Israeli terms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted April 9 Moderator Share Posted April 9 1 minute ago, Mandy Lifeboats said: What better bargaining tool that the threat of an offensive or a ceasefire on Israeli terms. Maybe, but it's not like they need an additional bargaining tool to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy Lifeboats Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 You can never have to many bargaining tools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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