Jareth Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 I think Israel have been very accurate - they target entire apartment blocks, and they hit them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 1 hour ago, ender4 said: Do you have a link please? I can't find it. It's behind a paywall, but here you go: https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/israel-hamas-war-gaza-strip-conflict/card/watch-video-analysis-shows-gaza-hospital-was-hit-by-failed-rocket-meant-for-israel-rP4uhNqD5MQoYryXxsvC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 IDF put out a statement early hours of this morning that the ground operation into Gaza will be aborted, if Hamas releases all hostages and surrenders to the Israeli authorities. It is acknowledged on here that Hamas is a terrorist group, and that the best outcome would see all Palestinian civilians in Gaza spared and protected from the inevitable harm of a war on the ground. That outcome is in Hamas’ power to deliver. If Hamas refuses to release its hostages and refuses to surrender to Israel, then it is inviting the IDF to attack - as Hamas continues to hide behind and amongst the civilian population. The Israelis are offering Hamas (and by extension the Palestinian people they control) a way out of this war before it properly begins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villaglint Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 7 minutes ago, Awol said: IDF put out a statement early hours of this morning that the ground operation into Gaza will be aborted, if Hamas releases all hostages and surrenders to the Israeli authorities. It is acknowledged on here that Hamas is a terrorist group, and that the best outcome would see all Palestinian civilians in Gaza spared and protected from the inevitable harm of a war on the ground. That outcome is in Hamas’ power to deliver. If Hamas refuses to release its hostages and refuses to surrender to Israel, then it is inviting the IDF to attack - as Hamas continues to hide behind and amongst the civilian population. The Israelis are offering Hamas (and by extension the Palestinian people they control) a way out of this war before it properly begins. Sounds fair enough, be interesting to see if Hamas accepts this deal! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 3 minutes ago, villaglint said: Sounds fair enough, be interesting to see if Hamas accepts this deal! Right. But if expecting Hamas to surrender is deemed unrealistic, then expecting Israel not to pursue them into Gaza is equally (if not more) so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Dogg Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 They want Hamas to surrender what? Everything? Give up their cause and hand themselves over? Do you think the people of Palestine want that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 I really don't understand this hospital bomb discussion. It is absolutely certain US and Israeli intelligence have exact locations of each missile fired. They have satellites all over it. If it was indeed a Hamas rocket, why can't they show pictures of where it's come from, it's trajectory, not even mentioning they could show the videos of launch and flight path? I know it's intelligence, but surely this argument which questions Israeli morality could be very easily resolved? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ender4 Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 16 minutes ago, Mr_Dogg said: They want Hamas to surrender what? Everything? Give up their cause and hand themselves over? Well, they are about to lose everything anyway when Israel start the full scale war. Sometimes the smart thing in the long run to concede somewhat and rebuilt. Not that i expect that to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted October 23, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted October 23, 2023 You have to appreciate the brass neck required to say 'can the bad guys just hand themselves over, and if they don't, we're completely justified in whatever we do to the 'innocents' *winkwink* in the crossfire'. Especially when those bad guys position is slightly more complicated than just being criminals. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted October 23, 2023 Moderator Share Posted October 23, 2023 7 hours ago, magnkarl said: I think what the others are trying to say is that Hamas is willfully building bunkers/tunnels/ammo storage below universities, hospitals and high rise buildings as they know that the Western community will caution Israel from striking these. Just on this, yes Hamas is doing and has done that over years. So faced with a terrorist opponent "protecting" itself by hiding and sheltering under civilians, Israel has an obligation not to bomb those places. A strategy of flattening Gaza, which is what they're doing is wrong, both in International Humanitarian law, and in practicality - it doesn't work, and hasn't worked. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted October 23, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted October 23, 2023 56 minutes ago, Awol said: IDF put out a statement early hours of this morning that the ground operation into Gaza will be aborted, if Hamas releases all hostages and surrenders to the Israeli authorities. It is acknowledged on here that Hamas is a terrorist group, and that the best outcome would see all Palestinian civilians in Gaza spared and protected from the inevitable harm of a war on the ground. That outcome is in Hamas’ power to deliver. If Hamas refuses to release its hostages and refuses to surrender to Israel, then it is inviting the IDF to attack - as Hamas continues to hide behind and amongst the civilian population. The Israelis are offering Hamas (and by extension the Palestinian people they control) a way out of this war before it properly begins. I'm not sure anyone has ever said Israel shouldn't "attack" at all. They have every right to retaliate. The issue is the scale and method of the retaliation. Having a right to retaliate or attack doesn't mean you have a right to commit war crimes, for example Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post chrisp65 Posted October 23, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted October 23, 2023 I believe Hamas have issued an ultimatum that if Israel just hand back the stolen land and recognise Palestine as an independent state and hand over the government for war crimes prosecutions then they’ll stop the attacks. It’s all on Israel now to show whether they really want peace for their people. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 33 minutes ago, Mr_Dogg said: They want Hamas to surrender what? Everything? Give up their cause and hand themselves over? Do you think the people of Palestine want that? Surrender themselves into custody for prosecution, following the massacre on the 7th of October. Their ‘cause’, according to the Hamas Charter, is the destruction of the state of Israel. Not securing rights for Palestinian civilians or anything actually achievable, but the eradication of Israel as a state. Hamas has also now demonstrated what their plans would be for any Israeli civilians that fall under their control - i.e. demonic levels of butchery. Some might argue that’s a little uncompromising and maximalist as an objective, and it might also be argued (following events on the 7th) that gives Israel the right to go after Hamas and destroy them physically in Gaza. The legality of hunting down the leadership in other sovereign states and assassinating them is definitely questionable, but they will do it anyway - as they did after Munich, and to the Nazis before them. It’s quite hard to argue on one hand that Hamas can’t be expected to surrender, and on the other that Israel has no right to go after them. If Hamas’ was at all interested in the welfare of Palestinians then it has the opportunity to ensure their welfare. If, as you suggest, Palestinian civilians support Hamas and what they did in Israel (and civilian participation in kidnappings, looting of settlements, mistreating hostages, and spitting on the body of a murdered German Jewish woman, suggests that some might), then Hamas as the governing authority still has ultimate responsibility for their welfare. Instead, Hamas really only cares about killing Israelis, as if doing so will magic away an internationally recognised UN member state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 24 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: I'm not sure anyone has ever said Israel shouldn't "attack" at all. They have every right to retaliate. The issue is the scale and method of the retaliation. Having a right to retaliate or attack doesn't mean you have a right to commit war crimes, for example Of course, by definition no state has a right to commit war crimes. BTW, an armed force hiding behind civilians is committing a war crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 Fwiw Israel still has capitol punishment for "crimes against the Jewish people during wartime" and they've not been shy at torturing prisoners according reports. So it's likely torture and death the Hamas terrorists would be surrendering to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Stevo985 Posted October 23, 2023 VT Supporter Popular Post Share Posted October 23, 2023 9 minutes ago, Awol said: Of course, by definition no state has a right to commit war crimes. BTW, an armed force hiding behind civilians is committing a war crime. Of course it is. Again nobody is saying otherwise. I just felt the implication in your post was “they’ve been warned, if anything happens now it’s Hamas’ fault” I was just saying it doesn’t give Israel the right to do whatever they want 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 11 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: I was just saying it doesn’t give Israel the right to do whatever they want Absolutely, no argument here. I was only making the point that Hamas could avoid any further civilian deaths by accepting the invitation to surrender. However, it is impossible to fight in an urban area (in which civilians have either ignored instructions to leave or been coerced to remain by Hamas) and still avoid all civilian casualties. Even if Hamas wants to fight the IDF to the finish, they could as the authority on the ground insist that Palestinian civilians evacuate south of Wadi Gaza in order to protect them. Hamas is doing the opposite, and deliberately keeping civilians in the environment where fighting will take place. Therefore, civilian deaths that do occur are ultimately the responsibility of Hamas, because it is Hamas who kept them there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted October 23, 2023 Moderator Share Posted October 23, 2023 16 minutes ago, Awol said: Even if Hamas wants to fight the IDF to the finish, they could as the authority on the ground insist that Palestinian civilians evacuate south of Wadi Gaza in order to protect them. Israel has been bombing south of Wadi Gaza - there are reports that Palestinians have been heading back North because they don't feel any safer in the South than they do there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted October 23, 2023 Moderator Share Posted October 23, 2023 2 hours ago, Awol said: IDF put out a statement early hours of this morning that the ground operation into Gaza will be aborted, Im not sure why I originally read this as BOF putting out a statement cancelling the ground operation. It seemed a little beyond his usual remit. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fightoffyour Posted October 23, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted October 23, 2023 23 minutes ago, Awol said: Absolutely, no argument here. I was only making the point that Hamas could avoid any further civilian deaths by accepting the invitation to surrender. However, it is impossible to fight in an urban area (in which civilians have either ignored instructions to leave or been coerced to remain by Hamas) and still avoid all civilian casualties. Even if Hamas wants to fight the IDF to the finish, they could as the authority on the ground insist that Palestinian civilians evacuate south of Wadi Gaza in order to protect them. Hamas is doing the opposite, and deliberately keeping civilians in the environment where fighting will take place. Therefore, civilian deaths that do occur are ultimately the responsibility of Hamas, because it is Hamas who kept them there. No, the ultimate responsibility will always be with the ones doing the killing. Hamas would take their fair share of the blame though in that case. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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