Israel, Palestine and Iran

[Tumblerseven]

The Anguished Fallout from a Pro-Palestinian Letter at Harvard | The New Yorker

The Anguished Fallout from a Pro-Palestinian Letter at Harvard

Students issued a statement blaming Israel for the Hamas attacks. Then a doxing campaign tested the courage of their conviction.

 

[VILLAMARV]

7 hours ago, Awol said:

The Israelis are not attacking innocent people, they are trying to attack Hamas. Being charitable, it’s a sleight of hand to suggest innocent people are the target.

I appreciate you're talking about this week with OBE there, and taking us down the route of bombs and collateral damage, but they have though haven't they, Israel, targetted innocent Palestinians. And the UN and (talking of charity) Amnesty (amongst others) have called them out on it too. Doesn't your accusation of minimisation ring true with your own post?

[Panto_Villan]

The word “targeted” means different things to different people. We all know Hamas deliberately place military targets in and among civilian targets, and use Palestinians as human shields.

If Hamas has based themselves in a building full of civilians, and Israel drops a bomb on it, Israel would say they’re not targeting the civilians - Hamas are the targets and they’d be dropping the bomb whether or not the civilians are present.

Their opponents would say Israel deliberately aimed the bomb at a building known to contain civilians - therefore civilians were targeted.

As I’ve mentioned before I’m broadly anti-Israel but I tend to subscribe to the first viewpoint. I think it’s a more accurate use of the word.

Ultimately the acceptability of a given action comes down to the proportionality, but it’s important to acknowledge that the way Hamas fight makes it impossible to fight them without causing civilian casualties and it’s not only Israel that bears the blame for that.

Edited October 22, 2023 by Panto_Villan

[ender4]

7 hours ago, avfc1982am said:

I think this whole thread is a mess tbh. So much circular arguing over stuff that is currently unproveable one way or another, so much debate over who is just and who isn't.

The bottom line is the whole situation is another f****** catastrophe whereby the innocent die because of those wielding power.... on both sides.  

Actually I think that this thread has been full of insightful and mainly measured comments and I’ve ‘enjoyed’ reading it.   It’s a million times better than the shitshow arguments on other social media.

[LondonLax]

10 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

Not blaming everything on the Israeli state. Just their fair share of the ethnic cleansing and war crimes. Hamas are just as bad, they want the same. 

I’m not sure that’s insanity, is it?

That’s very charitable of you

Personally I would rank Hamas as even worse than the Israeli government on a range of measures. 

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

The irony...

Edited October 22, 2023 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[Genie]

10 hours ago, avfc1982am said:

I think this whole thread is a mess tbh. So much circular arguing over stuff that is currently unproveable one way or another, so much debate over who is just and who isn't.

100% this.

The fact is none of us know EXACTLY what is going on over there. It’s horrendous from both sides. Arguing about who is the most horrendous is pointless.

[bickster]

1 minute ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

The irony...

If you can't see that what you've posted is classic nonsense there’s no helping you but I'll attempt it nonetheless.

Who are the unnamed “Western Champions of Human Rights”?

Once you can name them, then outline what their response has been to the current situation in Gaza.

This is classic “The West” (whatever that is) is the enemy and all one homogenous entity rubbish.

Is Amnesty International part of “The West” for example? Are the millions of people marching on the streets in Europe in support of the plight of the Palestinians “The West”?

 

[LondonLax]

23 minutes ago, bickster said:

If you can't see that what you've posted is classic nonsense there’s no helping you but I'll attempt it nonetheless.

Who are the unnamed “Western Champions of Human Rights”?

Once you can name them, then outline what their response has been to the current situation in Gaza.

This is classic “The West” (whatever that is) is the enemy and all one homogenous entity rubbish.

Is Amnesty International part of “The West” for example? Are the millions of people marching on the streets in Europe in support of the plight of the Palestinians “The West”?

 

It’s just propaganda originating from the Middle East. They are plenty of people from that part of the world still smarting that westerners dared call them out for their human rights abuses instead of taking to the World Cup without question. 

[Rugeley Villa]

I’d say Hamas are the bigger cowards basing themselves around civilians more so than Israel bombing Hamas targets knowing there’s civilians there. It’s shit either way , but that’s war. 

[chrisp65]

3 hours ago, LondonLax said:

That’s very charitable of you

Personally I would rank Hamas as even worse than the Israeli government on a range of measures. 

Yes I agree it depends on what metrics you choose. But if you use a wide range of metrics then I do think Hamas are just as bad. Maybe not in absolute numbers killed, or territory stolen, or military nouse, but in other areas such as mode of murder where we appear to have a league table of more and less bad ways to kill a baby. Election rigging, is it better or worse to rig the count and shoot the opposition, or is it cleverer to simply exclude swathes of people from the vote?

But I think to the casual ‘western’ observer, the ones herded in to camps do appear far far less civilised or liberal than the ones now living in their houses. It comes down to that thing again of feeling like you have to pick a team. You don’t have to pick a team.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

1 hour ago, LondonLax said:

It’s just propaganda originating from the Middle East. They are plenty of people from that part of the world still smarting that westerners dared call them out for their human rights abuses instead of taking to the World Cup without question. 

Lol... So you're suggesting that they aren't actually upset about what is happening in Palestine... Just using the opportunity to post propoganda as they are still " smarting " about being " called out " by Western Countries for human rights in relation to World Cup?

What has your own Prime Ministers stance on this whole thing been by the way? ( We already know )

I assume that the post is referring to the Government's of those countries.

You'd be better off to call it hyperbole or false equivalency than to insinuate such hogwash.

Guaranteed a vast majority of the people protesting in Western countries are either Eastern themselves, or immigrants of Eastern Origin. ( I'm not suggesting that Westerners aren't protesting also as their are droves )

@Rugeley Villa if you are legit still trying to run with this " human shield " shite there is not much more to say.

Targeting must be terrible since it appears it's sick, wounded and people seeking refuge being hit in places like hospitals and churches.

Wonder if you'd feel the same way if a suspected terror cell was allegedly based around St. Georges Cathedral so they flattened it while it was full of 100s of Church service goers " just in case ".

Either way, yet another circumstance in which I'm glad to be able to hold Nuance from both sets of eyes.

@bickster the West labeled themselves the West... They weren't appointed it.

All reasons why that Bassem Youssef interview with Piers Morgan was perfect, he legitimately laid bare just how absolutely ridiculous some of these notions were with excellent execution of sarcasm and Dark humour.

Sidenote/EDIT: I'm obviously neither Arab, nor am I Muslim, just in case anyone may feel I have biases based around religion etc 

I've just got human and moral red lines personally.

Edited October 22, 2023 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[OutByEaster?]

There's no way that Hamas could just arrange to meet Israel in the field over the way at six o'clock tonight, they'd be completely annihilated in an afternoon - the idea that's what they should be doing is just fanciful, like the IRA arranging to meet the British Army in a car park around the back of the cinema - why on earth would they do that?

[Davkaus]

15 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

 

Either way, yet another circumstance in which I'm glad to be able to hold Nuance from both sets of eyes.

Did you post this with a straight face? You're wasted on us, really, we should be flying you out to conduct peace talks  

[sne]

7 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

There's no way that Hamas could just arrange to meet Israel in the field over the way at six o'clock tonight, they'd be completely annihilated in an afternoon - the idea that's what they should be doing is just fanciful, like the IRA arranging to meet the British Army in a car park around the back of the cinema - why on earth would they do that?

It's like those American generals who thought it was cowardly by the Iraqis and Afghans to use IED's but thought it was very brave and masculine to bomb them from space with 10 tonnes MOAB's

[bickster]

16 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

@bickster the West labeled themselves the West... They weren't appointed it.

Which West? I'd love to see the origin story

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

1 minute ago, Davkaus said:

Did you post this with a straight face? You're wasted on us, really, we should be flying you out to conduct peace talks  

Yeah I knew I'd look a bit of a prick with some of that post but I know what I'm trying to say lol.

Probably just doesn't read the same way in text as I mean it in my head.

Similar to the whole world cup issues, I feel as if I'd probably hold alot of the views some people do, if I hadn't had the opportunity to be embedded in the alternate side of the culture.

In fairness I've got family and friends who are staunchly Pro Israel etc ( Mostly due to religion and Media programming ) so I couldn't get a word in with them anyway 

Obviously being on this side of the world, on the flip side, I'm bombarded with more programming biased towards this side, but I've always tried to pride myself on not falling for propoganda/bias, AND trying my best to ingest as much overall information as I can before putting forward an opinion.

Also have to again premise, sometimes I'm commenting on what I see in the wider world and media narrative, not in particular referencing VT members etc.

[LondonLax]

1 hour ago, chrisp65 said:

Yes I agree it depends on what metrics you choose. But if you use a wide range of metrics then I do think Hamas are just as bad. Maybe not in absolute numbers killed, or territory stolen, or military nouse, but in other areas such as mode of murder where we appear to have a league table of more and less bad ways to kill a baby. Election rigging, is it better or worse to rig the count and shoot the opposition, or is it cleverer to simply exclude swathes of people from the vote?

But I think to the casual ‘western’ observer, the ones herded in to camps do appear far far less civilised or liberal than the ones now living in their houses. It comes down to that thing again of feeling like you have to pick a team. You don’t have to pick a team.

Well I can’t let that kind of comment lie.

I’m not Jewish, have never been to Israel and have no love for the current party in power in that country (the leader seems like an even worse version of Trump, with all the corruption charges to boot) but even life under that type of regime for an Arab Israeli (20% of Israel’s population, some 2m people with full voting rights, state protections, representation in parliament etc) is a world apart from the life of a potential Jewish person living under Hamas (not possible, with a vow to kill every Jewish person they see. Let alone their horrible views on women or gay people). Hamas are an actual terrorist regime. 

The Israeli government are awful in many ways, I fully agree you absolutely don’t have to pick a team and I very much have not done so because you are bound to find yourself compromising your values backing either of these rogue regimes.

Having said that you can still apply a bit of nuance to the discussion than simply saying they are as “bad as each other” (and even then  your phrasing implies you were making a concession that Hamas were ‘as bad as Israel’). 

Edited October 22, 2023 by LondonLax

[magnkarl]

18 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

Or a very well aimed device to eliminate someone in that car park - that they've then backed away from because of the collateral damage - maybe.

Regardless, as said elsewhere it's one of many and we shouldn't let it take too much of the focus away for the things that are still happening now.

There are unconfirmed reports tonight of 130 babies in incubators in imminent danger as the last of the power goes.

Also, if that's exactly what you're saying, you're reporting war crimes.

 

Yes, under the international rules of engagement both sides in this conflict have committed war crimes. That’s what I’m saying.  The only point I have about this parking lot and hospital is that 1000 people didn’t die, they didn’t hit the hospital and Hamas and their moronic supporters lied about it, leading to the same ridiculous spread of ‘news’ across the globe as the baby thing.

[chrisp65]

1 hour ago, LondonLax said:

Well I can’t let that kind of comment lie.

I’m not Jewish, have never been to Israel and have no love for the current party in power in that country (the leader seems like an even worse version of Trump, with all the corruption charges to boot) but even life under that type of regime for an Arab Israeli (20% of Israel’s population, some 2m people with full voting rights, state protections, representation in parliament etc) is a world apart from the life of a potential Jewish person living under Hamas (not possible, with a vow to kill every Jewish person they see. Let alone their horrible views on women or gay people). Hamas are an actual terrorist regime. 

The Israeli government are awful in many ways, I fully agree you absolutely don’t have to pick a team and I very much have not done so because you are bound to find yourself compromising your values backing either of these rogue regimes.

Having said that you can still apply a bit of nuance to the discussion than simply saying they are as “bad as each other” (and even then  your phrasing implies you were making a concession that Hamas were ‘as bad as Israel’). 

It’s difficult to do nuance at a time like this, although some are more capable than others LL and you’re not shouting at me, so cheers for that.

I’m sure that if I absolutely had a binary choice of living in Gaza or Israel, I’d choose Israel. Though, I’d prefer not to be a Palestinian in Israel with a nice home in an area some Israeli settlers want, because then I would find myself driven out by thieves protected by a well equipped army. 

We don’t know what a genuinely free Palestine would develop in to, you look at places like Lebanon which has been at times a little liberal oasis with a famous Mediterranean nightlife and cafe culture. But Gaza has been brutalised for 70 years and when somewhere is basically hopeless it tends not to flourish in to a liberal democracy. You could argue that the Israeli’s have been a massive contributor to the way Gaza has gone, they’ve pushed them in to the hands of the likes of Iran. The result is what we see now and that would be why I’d suggest they are as bad as each other. They’ve fed off each other for a very long time.

Then I guess it comes down to whether we prefer babies blown apart by high calibre bullets, dehydrated to death in an incubator with no electric, crushed under concrete in a refugee camp, stabbed, or shot with precision by a sniper 500 metres away. I’ll be honest, I struggle to choose.  

Edited October 22, 2023 by chrisp65