Awol Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 27 minutes ago, djdabush said: Well they have it on the BBC News site. I'm amazed, well done them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 3 hours ago, maqroll said: The article mentions police running from knife wielding attackers. I can see people calling for regular police to carry firearms now. A friend of mine is a detective in the met and not long ago they were all asked by their union if they wanted to carry firearms - matter of time I think, in London anyway. Also, their boroughs have been merged due to tory cuts and morale is at an all time low due to lack of resources, lack of officers and the subsequent mucking about with rotas, meaning night shifts are followed by day shifts and minimal sleep allowed. It's obvious what the police need and that is investment. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapal_fan Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 It's pretty exhausting being pissed off at these events happening all the time. My wife won't go to see Ricky Gervais with me now.. and I totally understand her worry about it. I wrote a big long post in the Manchester attack thread about being angry with the waste of life. I'm just as angry now, I've had some pretty jarring thoughts skim through there until rationale has caught up and I've "talked myself down". As has been said, you can't stop these incidents happening. The only common denominator from these recent attacks is a religion called Islam (unfortunately for all honest, good Muslims out there). The perps don't (didnt) know each other, they're just nutcases who are becoming more emboldened and their own death seemingly doesn't even worry them.. If your actions lead to your own death and you're still not concerned.. what the hell can anyone do to prevent what you want to act out? The scary thing is, is that the really ISN'T any answer to it. We have good services to try and prevent these things happening, but without giving up every freedom we have, a few will spill through. People will become angry, bitter and you can almost see vigilante groups being formed should this keep happening. Just sick of being on edge now. What if? what if? whatever.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Awol Posted June 4, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted June 4, 2017 Just now, Jareth said: A friend of mine is a detective in the met and not long ago they were all asked by their union if they wanted to carry firearms - matter of time I think, in London anyway. Also, their boroughs have been merged due to tory cuts and morale is at an all time low due to lack of resources, lack of officers and the subsequent mucking about with rotas, meaning night shifts are followed by day shifts and minimal sleep allowed. It's obvious what the police need and that is investment. Arm all police in London and attackers will switch focus to softer targets. The police can't stop this, whether they are all armed or not and many would leave if forced to carry. The intelligence services can't stop all of it. Tougher sentences don't deter people who want to die and the idea punishing families is abhorrent - we are not Israel. The only solution is within the Muslim community, until extremism is viewed as the ultimate shame for the perpetrators and their families it will continue. ICM did a poll of British Muslims for Channel 4 last year and only 34% said they would report on someone they knew who was getting involved with terrorism related to Syria (so really that's ISIS or AQ). That doesn't scream 'close to a solution' to me. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 48 minutes ago, djdabush said: Well they have it on the BBC News site. And I just heard it being played on radio 5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjaacckk91 Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 Devastating, I think this one hits home more knowing me and my friends were there not long ago. How do we stop this stuff from happening. 'intelligence' and prevention methods clearly aren't particularly effective against attacks like this. I've seen lots of calls for closed borders, early arrest and sentencing/ deportation, but I don't think that works or is possible tbh. I think the only way is to remove as much of the motive for someone to even consider it as possible. We can't undo getting involved in the middle East , but now even if we stopped getting involved in the middle East, how do you manage to make peace when they can't make peace with each other and you've given them every reason to hate you. At this point there must be an entire generation of people there that know us as one of the counties that bombed or was at war with them. It all just looks so hopeless to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted June 4, 2017 Moderator Share Posted June 4, 2017 Spot on AWOL on all points. On the subject of Policing and arming the Police the issue is far more complex than the complaints about budget cuts. I'm against the cuts and the reduction in the number of Police but the reality is that even if we still had the additional 19k offices it wouldn't have stopped these events. As for armed Police, the Met are trying to recruit more but can't the truth is that not many Police officers want the job. That is in no small part due to the fact that if they due use their weapon they are likely to face up to 2 years of investigation of their actions. The job of the armed response units are near impossible and almost entirely thankless. That is before you even think of the actual trauma of being involved in a shooting event. So the prospect of arming Police through London is a very very very long way off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted June 4, 2017 Moderator Share Posted June 4, 2017 Another fatality just announced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Chindie Posted June 4, 2017 VT Supporter Popular Post Share Posted June 4, 2017 May have been mentioned elsewhere but fits here. An official investigation into terrorist funding was recently suppressed due to it's 'sensitive' content. It does not take a genius to understand what sensitive means. At some point our relationship with Saudi Arabia needs to be addressed. 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 1 hour ago, TrentVilla said: No offence intended mate but that is ridiculous. Tougher sentences mean nothing to those willing and wanting to die and punishing the relatives of those responsible is an appalling idea. You dont know that for sure. How do we know friends and familes dont know whats going on ? We don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 26 minutes ago, TrentVilla said: Another fatality just announced. 8 mins from first call to 3 dead terrorists. In that time they killed 7 and wounded 48, the majority with knives and across multiple locations. That's an absolute frenzy of violence, thank god they didn't have guns. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 2 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: You dont know that for sure. How do we know friends and familes dont know whats going on ? We don't. If prosecutors can prove the families knew then they can be tried for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted June 4, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted June 4, 2017 4 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: You dont know that for sure. How do we know friends and familes dont know whats going on ? We don't. If friends and family have committed a crime, aided and abetted, they cab tried and punished for that. You're suggestion seemed to be the nuts collective punishment route of going for possibly innocent people who happened to be close to or family of someone who did something horrific. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 This kind of attack certainly doesn't require much in the way of meticulous planning or networking in a way that makes it readily traceable. A few face to face conversations, a van hire and buying some knives and that's it. Seems like there will almost surely be more of these kind of attacks I'm afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest av1 Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 44 minutes ago, Awol said: ICM did a poll of British Muslims for Channel 4 last year and only 34% said they would report on someone they knew who was getting involved with terrorism related to Syria (so really that's ISIS or AQ). People have said for years that muslims need to do more weed out terrorism, and everytime they do they get shouted down. 1.8 billion Muslims in the world, why is their duty to sort out a few nutjobs? is the common response. Apart from idiots like Trump, nobody believes all Muslims are terrorists, but those figures show that the problem in this country (and around the world) is much deeper than many like to admit. 66% of people would not report someone they knew involved in terrorism. Just a few nutjobs and nothing to do with Islam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest av1 Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 13 minutes ago, Awol said: 8 mins from first call to 3 dead terrorists. Fantastic work by the police. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted June 4, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted June 4, 2017 8 minutes ago, Dr_Pangloss said: This kind of attack certainly doesn't require much in the way of meticulous planning or networking in a way that makes it readily traceable. A few face to face conversations, a van hire and buying some knives and that's it. Seems like there will almost surely be more of these kind of attacks I'm afraid. It's certain there will be more of this. The twisted logic of it is too simple. Why do the difficult thing, learn the chemistry, get the materials over a period, make a bomb and have it work, when you can achieve the same effect with a vehicle and some knives? You could realistically go from the idea to carrying it out in minutes. One is not complex and gives opportunities for you to be caught, the other is simple and you are far less likely to be noticed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugeley Villa Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 3 minutes ago, av1 said: People have said for years that muslims need to do more weed out terrorism, and everytime they do they get shouted down. 1.8 billion Muslims in the world, why is their duty to sort out a few nutjobs? is the common response. Apart from idiots like Trump, nobody believes all Muslims are terrorists, but those figures show that the problem in this country (and around the world) is much deeper than many like to admit. 66% of people would not report someone they knew involved in terrorism. Just a few nutjobs and nothing to do with Islam. It goes much deeper than we think imo. This is becoming the norm now which is terrifying and I dread to think where we are going to be with this problem in the years ahead. Thing is you cannot stop these attacks as there is very little planning required. This has everything to do with religion, yes Islam I'm looking at you, and it's going to take decades if at all that this problem will burn itself out or can be contained. The world we live in is changing and it will be interesting to see which straw breaks the camels back and what route our governments go down. We are at war in our homeland, but I think we knew that anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingram85 Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 (edited) If they identify them as 'known to authorities' or were part of the '3000+ list' then I don't think its going to end well. I fear for where this is going to go i.e revenge attacks, martial law type stuff, breakdown of society. Its going to be a twisted evil type of civil war out there in years to come as I can't see huge swathes of the British public putting up with this for much longer if its repeatedly going to be a 'home grown' thing. I guarantee that the scary idea of the most known to be dangerous people (the tip top worst of the list of 3000+ in this country) be terminated as a prevention/precaution will be suggested. What's even more scary is that I find myself becoming less than 100% dead set against that idea. That upsets me. The state of this is really ****. I worry for normal innocent Muslims going forward, completely innocent but at risk. I hope the more 'salt of the earth' type elements of the British public remain calm while we learn how to effectively combat this as irrational reaction plays directly into the threats hands. They want anger, fear, division and fuel for their fire. We can't react the way they want and aim for as it would only help radicalise people quicker and turn people to their cause who other wise wouldn't have turned before. That's why we can't turn on ourselves but I fear that path is already slowly opening up. I'm scared for the future if I'm honest. Edit: Is just re read my post and it scares me that that stuff is in my head, I'm so conflicted at the moment. I try to think rationally about it and then I think of the deceased victims, the injured victims, the impact on family and friends, the impact on us as a society, our future etc... and then I envisge hearing the terms 'known to authorities', 'we were watching them' etc and I find myself getting angry again to the point where I don't like myself for thinking about what I described above. Edited June 4, 2017 by Ingram85 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post TrentVilla Posted June 4, 2017 Moderator Popular Post Share Posted June 4, 2017 40 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: You dont know that for sure. How do we know friends and familes dont know whats going on ? We don't. Sorry but I do know punishing people for the crimes of their relatives is a horrific suggestion. That is entirely different to what you are now saying above, if they knew what was going on then they've committed an offence and can be prosecuted accordingly. That is a entirely different set of circumstances. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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