Manchester Arena Explosion

[mykeyb]

33 minutes ago, Chindie said:

That should send a chill through your spine.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Tell that to Olivia Campbells Mother. Whats the alternative if we arent to be pro-active?

[Davkaus]

2 minutes ago, mykeyb said:

Tell that to Olivia Campbells Mother. Whats the alternative if we arent to be pro-active?

Appealing to emotion isn't convincing enough that I think we should throw away the rights of our citizens to due process. 

I'm sure Olivia Campbell's mother might very much be in favour of mass deportations with or without compelling evidence right now. There's a reason that we don't allow victims or their relatives sit on a jury; they don't tend to be thinking with a clear head

The alternative is accepting that in a country with tens of millions of people, bad things are sometimes going to happen. We can (and do) mitigate the risk with well funded and resourced intelligence agencies. 20 odd people dying, as tragic as it is, shouldn't give our government the right to start chucking people out of the country for being muslim and some civil servant not liking the cut of their jib.

[mykeyb]

Just now, Davkaus said:

Appealing to emotion isn't convincing enough that I think we should throw away the rights of our citizens to due process. 

I'm sure Olivia Campbell's mother might very much be in favour of mass deportations with or without compelling evidence right now. There's a reason that we don't allow victims or their relatives sit on a jury; they don't tend to be thinking with a clear head

The alternative is accepting that in a country with tens of millions of people, bad things are sometimes going to happen. We can (and do) mitigate the risk with well funded and resourced intelligence agencies. 20 odd people dying, as tragic as it is, shouldn't give our government the right to start chucking people out of the country for being muslim and some civil servant not liking the cut of their jib.

They wont be chucked out of the country for being muslim, they will be deported because there is strong evidence that they are involved in terrorism, there is a big difference.

[Davkaus]

3 minutes ago, mykeyb said:

they will be deported because there is strong evidence that they are involved in terrorism

But not sufficient evidence to stand up in court? You think that's acceptable? Who do you think will be assessing this evidence and deeming it sufficient to chuck people they don't like out of the country?

Edited May 24, 2017 by Davkaus

[PaulC]

11 minutes ago, mykeyb said:

Tell that to Olivia Campbells Mother. Whats the alternative if we arent to be pro-active?

I agree human rights should go out the window. we need to get tougher. 

[StefanAVFC]

2 minutes ago, mykeyb said:

They wont be chucked out of the country for being muslim, they will be deported because there is strong evidence that they are involved in terrorism, there is a big difference.

As Chris said on the previous page, there's enough evidence that they're involved in terrorism that they're on a list? But not enough that they aren't arrested? So the middle ground is to deport them? Even if they're British citizens.

That's a slippery slope I'm not comfortable going down.

[StefanAVFC]

Just now, PaulC said:

I agree human rights should go out the window. we need to get tougher. 

I agree. Authoritarianism and police states are proven to work.

[Chindie]

Just now, mykeyb said:

Tell that to Olivia Campbells Mother. Whats the alternative if we arent to be pro-active?

Olivia Campbells mother has suffered an horrific loss, of course, and its a tragedy. As have dozens of other families.

Quoting grieving relatives isn't an argument though. Famously those in grief are rational thinkers. My mother died due to anothers' actions. I met the person responsible a few months later. At the time of her death, I'd have cashed in everyone of his rights. I know that would be entirely wrong.

Civil rights are hard fought, and important. They define our values, they set the standards for life that we expect of all of us. We shouldn't be blinded by tragedy to begin curtailing them. You normalise infringing rights at your peril - because one day they will be your rights infringed, or your families. As oft quoted... first they came for the Jews.

I don't have the answers for this. If I did I'd be far better paid and not sat here now. What I can say, is the way to proceed should be one that is within our laws, maintaining our rights, and maintaining our values. If there is evidence, use it to arrest and prosecute. If there is valid suspicion (and that doesn't mean 'He's Muslim/Syrian/whatever'), use it to gather evidence within the law (we've already empowered the police to obscene levels to invade everyones privacy) and use that arrest and prosecute. If that means spending more money on more hands at the pump and more resource, do it.

This will happen, and it will keep happening. You can cash in every right, every liberty, every value, and it will still happen. Wrong headed nutjobs will still get cars, they will still get knives, they will still slip through the cracks and get the equipment to create bombs and other weapons. People will die. And it's tragic and will make us all rail against the world. But this is the world we have, and we need to understand that, and do what we can to mitigate it within our own standards, and not risk things one day we might need, and should value.

[PaulC]

Just now, StefanAVFC said:

I agree. Authoritarianism and police states are proven to work.

No but who is more important the innocent victims of terrorism or suspected terrorists. Right now we cant afford to be soft

[Dr_Pangloss]

Not saying I agree with it, but it's very often the case that these attacks are carried about by people 'known' to police, but of course, not in prison. If these attacks become more frequent, which is of course entirely possible, then I can imagine that the deportation solution will be much more on the 'table'. Then it's really a trade off as what people actually want, potentially being safer at the cost of a clear infringement of human rights. I can imagine it going down well with a lot of voters. 

Edited May 24, 2017 by Dr_Pangloss

[chrisp65]

7 minutes ago, mykeyb said:

Tell that to Olivia Campbells Mother. Whats the alternative if we arent to be pro-active?

don't take this as aggressive it's just an illustration, insert any name you fancy:

 

I know that mykeyb/paulc/rugeley is a real threat to the UK. I can't show people the evidence, you will have to trust my secret information, it's not going to court it wouldn't make the grade for a prosecution, you will have to trust me and my informants, you will have to accept that to stop innocent men, women and children being murdered it is for the general good of the nation that mykeyb is somehow dropped off in Libya. Obviously we can't afford to leave a now disgruntled wife and child to stay here with a grievance, so they are also being sent to Tripoli to fend for themselves. Anybody protesting for him to remain, is also part of the same cell.

You'll be able to see the evidence in maybe 25 years or so. 

Just being pro-active in the interest of the majority. What's the alternative?

Off you go. Just protecting our freedom. Bye.

[Davkaus]

1 minute ago, PaulC said:

No but who is more important the innocent victims of terrorism or suspected terrorists. Right now we cant afford to be soft

What about the innocent victims of being suspected of being a terrorist?

I suspect that authorities would have very little interest in telling us how many people are "known people of interest" who never go on to commit any kind of offence.

[mykeyb]

1 minute ago, Chindie said:

I don't have the answers for this. 

So we remain reactive then so that someone who is suspected of planning a terror attack on our soil doesnt have their civil rights impinged...........I dont agree with you I am afraid, I am not sure that deporting suspects is particularly the answer either. Maybe while we have troops helping the police we should be bringing in every single suspect on the watch list and put the fear of god (bad wording I know) into them, scare them off or force their hand.

[Dodgyknees]

4 minutes ago, PaulC said:

No but who is more important the innocent victims of terrorism or suspected terrorists. Right now we cant afford to be soft

But once we start deporting British citizens, which I presume this is about (scan reading at work), we build more hatred in young British muslims who see people from their community deported even though they were born here. What then, 'are you a terrorist' tests for 16 year olds?

Chips implanted in arms to track all young muslims?

What do we do next. Where will it stop?

Edited May 24, 2017 by DK82

[Stevo985]

4 minutes ago, PaulC said:

No but who is more important the innocent victims of terrorism or suspected terrorists.

That could be literally the same person.

[mykeyb]

3 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

don't take this as aggressive it's just an illustration, insert any name you fancy:

 

I know that mykeyb/paulc/rugeley is a real threat to the UK. I can't show people the evidence, you will have to trust my secret information, it's not going to court it wouldn't make the grade for a prosecution, you will have to trust me and my informants, you will have to accept that to stop innocent men, women and children being murdered it is for the general good of the nation that mykeyb is somehow dropped off in Libya. Obviously we can't afford to leave a now disgruntled wife and child to stay here with a grievance, so they are also being sent to Tripoli to fend for themselves. Anybody protesting for him to remain, is also part of the same cell.

You'll be able to see the evidence in maybe 25 years or so. 

Just being pro-active in the interest of the majority. What's the alternative?

Off you go. Just protecting our freedom. Bye.

Of the 3000 plus on the current watchlist how many do you think are 100% innocent?

[snowychap]

1 minute ago, mykeyb said:

we should be bringing in every single suspect on the watch list

Round up the usual suspects.

[mykeyb]

5 minutes ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

Not saying I agree with it, but it's very often the case that these attacks are carried about by people 'known' to police, but of course, not in prison. If these attacks become more frequent, which is of course entirely possible, then I can imagine that the deportation solution will be much more on the 'table'. Then it's really a trade off as what people actually want, potentially being safer at the cost of a clear infringement of human rights. I can imagine it going down well with a lot of voters. 

Targeting children is an absolute new low, if this were to happen again I would imagine that the calls for some action would be very very strong.

[PaulC]

1 minute ago, Davkaus said:

What about the innocent victims of being suspected of being a terrorist?

I suspect that authorities would have very little interest in telling us how many people are "known people of interest" who never go on to commit any kind of offence.

Its a tough one isn't it. This chap had just come back from lybia and was on there list so why wasn't he questioned over the purpose of his visit?

[Dr_Pangloss]

4 minutes ago, DK82 said:

But once we start deporting British citizens, which I presume this is about (scan reading at work), we build more hatred in young British muslims who see people from their community deported even though they were born here. What then, 'are you a terrorist' tests for 16 year olds?

Chips implanted in arms to track all young muslims?

What do we do next. Where will it stop?

Playing devil's advocate, but in these situations, there's no smoke without fire, it won't be the case that innocent people will be getting snatched off the streets, rather people who are considered a threat based on evidence. Yes, this is a massive slippery slope, but I feel like we are a handful of suicide attacks away from this outcome. 

It's not exactly palatable, or acceptable, among a lot of voters to simply have to make do with suicide bombing in the UK being a 'fact of life'. 

Edited May 24, 2017 by Dr_Pangloss