Will we give Bruce and the team a clean slate?

[PaulC]

Whether he stays or not I don't think you can just give him a clean slate. I expect he will still be here but he needs to start well because we can not afford three seasons in the championship. 

[TRO]

No slate exists for me either......its just a job requiring progression.

I think from taking over in the bottom 3 he can claim that despite us not liking where we finished.

slowly,slowly catch a monkey.

[PaulC]

We are not a club like Blues or Barnsley though where we can be happy with steady progression. We are a massive club playing in a division below where it should be so its promotion or out for me next season. 

[Zatman]

not a clean slate but I think he will get a 10 game grace period. If we arent in Top 6 by then or look like challenging then I think the board will bite the bullet on him

[markavfc40]

2 hours ago, DCJonah said:

I'm not sure how you can say the club has stopped going backwards. After relegation we've just finished bottom half in the league below. 

I think claiming we're pointing in the right direction is very premature. 

The previous six seasons before this last one we had been going backwards culminating in one of the worst seasons in the clubs history. This season despite a huge over haul over the summer we had a record prior to Bruce arriving of one win in 12 games including a league cup defeat at a league 2 side and had 10 points from 11 league games. Had that form have continued over a season we'd have finished with 41 points. On top of that we hadn't won away from home for 14 months and had won 4 games in total over the previous 18 months.

Since Bruce arrived our form improved enough to get us to 62 points. We have gone from averaging under a point a game prior to his arrival  to averaging just over 1.5 points per game under him. At home we now look very strong and have a very good record. Away form has gone from diabolical to poor and I'd acknowledge still needs to improve dramatically. Overall though whilst we haven't pulled up any trees under Bruce we aren't going backwards anymore and he has turned us around and like I said we now at least point in the right direction. 

The challenge for him now is to get us moving forwards quickly and I think he will. I think he'll know what needs tweaking and I think he will make the necessary three or four signings we need. I think his signings so far have been good. Taylor is as good a left back as we have had in years, Bree looks a very promising young player, Hourihane and Lansbury once they click and build up an understanding should alongside Jedinak give us one of the best midfield combinations in the division as they should all compliment each other very well. I think Hogan again once he has got used to the players around him and they have gotten used to him and the runs he makes will take the burden off Kodjia. It would also help if he could stay injury free of course. Johnstone has looked more assured with each passing game and hopefully we can keep him. I think all the players mentioned will benefit from a full pre season at the club and I think Bruce will be better able to get a set formation and set in stone how he wants to play without having to play 2 games a week whilst initially getting to know a group of players many of whom had only had a couple of months together and then trying to integrate another half a dozen players in January.

I know some fans aren't as confident in Bruce as me but I really think we will reap the rewards of some stability and certainly stability under a manager with Bruce's record in this division.

 

 

Edited May 8, 2017 by markavfc40

[DCJonah]

9 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

The previous six seasons before this last one we had been going backwards culminating in one of the worst seasons in the clubs history. This season despite a huge over haul over the summer we had a record prior to Bruce arriving of one win in 12 games including a league cup defeat at a league 2 side and had 10 points from 11 league games. Had that form have continued over a season we'd have finished with 41 points. On top of that we hadn't won away from home for 14 months and had won 4 games in total over the previous 18 months.

Since Bruce arrived our form improved enough to get us to 62 points. We have gone from averaging under a point a game prior to his arrival  to averaging just over 1.5 points per game under him. At home we now look very strong and have a very good record. Away form has gone from diabolical to poor and I'd acknowledge still needs to improve dramatically. Overall though whilst we haven't pulled up any trees under Bruce we aren't going backwards anymore and he has turned us around and like I said we now at least point in the right direction. 

The challenge for him now is to get us moving forwards quickly and I think he will. I think he'll know what needs tweaking and I think he will make the necessary three or four signings we need. I think his signings so far have been good. Taylor is as good a left back as we have had in years, Bree looks a very promising young player, Hourihane and Lansbury once they click and build up an understanding should alongside Jedinak give us one of the best midfield combinations in the division as they should all compliment each other very well. I think Hogan again once he has got used to the players around him and they have gotten used to him and the runs he makes will take the burden off Kodjia. It would also help if he could stay injury free of course. Johnstone has looked more assured with each passing game and hopefully we can keep him. I think all the players mentioned will benefit from a full pre season at the club and I think Bruce will be better able to get a set formation and set in stone how he wants to play without having to play 2 games a week whilst initially getting to know a group of players many of whom had only had a couple of months together and then trying to integrate another half a dozen players in January.

I know some fans aren't as confident in Bruce as me but I really think we will reap the rewards of some stability and certainly stability under a manager with Bruce's record in this division.

 

 

I'm not sure I agree with taking 10 games then claiming the rest as stopped going backwards. It's the same season, we've continued to drop. We've gone from premier league to bottom half championship, that's not going in the right direction that's continuing on a downward spiral. If we finish higher next year then you can claim it but it's a weak claim right now IMO. 

I hope you're right. I just don't know what gives you your faith. I've seen nothing that makes me think pre season will solve all our problems. 

[terrytini]

9 hours ago, VillaChris said:

It's funny this thread. It's something Mark alluded to on the SB thread yesterday. People can get caught up in their own little bubble on VT and the internet in general.

Going down VP I don't detect any sort of animosity to SB at all....yes this has been a disappointing year but I haven't heard much dissent towards him at all apart from probably the Barnsley game when we were in our terrible run.

I think most people are looking more to next season and expecting things to improve then. If they don't then we all know what will happen.

Clean slates? Well at the start of every season Lambert always seemed to get them in the expectation we'd actually start to look convincing under his watch. It never happened as he led us to more humiliating defeats and runs.

I don't detect any animosity either - but I wouldn't mistake that for people being in favour.

I think even his harshest critics are desperate for him to succeed -  everyone knows we have to stop the spiral downwards eventually, and soon - additionally most find him personally ok which helps.

I hear plenty frustrated at his tactics, and less and less people mentioning what a hard job he inherited - reasonably enough as in Football terms 3/4 of a season is quite a while ago.  What I hear most is it'd be better to keep him than get rid, because we've had too much change, and that the football can be crap if we win, because we must go up.  I don't think I ever hear much that would pass for active support in terms of the positives he personally brings to the job.

If you gauge it by the singing for him, for example,(just one of many indicators I know, but as a singer its one I like) its on the wane again after it came back to life during the recent winning run - (although it gained new life again towards the end on Sunday and during the appreciation lap - I for one applauded him long and loudly with an almost pleading intensity of the "sort it out for us Brucie " type thingy ) - he will get great backing very quickly if we start well, but if we don't it will tail off just as quickly IMO.

[terrytini]

3 hours ago, DCJonah said:

I'm not sure how you can say the club has stopped going backwards. After relegation we've just finished bottom half in the league below. 

I think claiming we're pointing in the right direction is very premature. 

I don't share this view but fully understand it.  It's possible to quote figures in terms of better Win ratios etc, but a guy drowning slower than he was is still drowning - Bruce has not raised us anywhere near as much as I suspect even he thought probable when he took over.  I know the back story but it doesn't alter that.

My reasoning for thinking he has reversed the decline and actually has us moving forward is a little less tangible than facts and figures though.....and its the same thing that gives me cause for such optimism  - not loads, but some - that I do have.....it's just that when I watch us now it doesn't feel like the train wreck it did previously - even when we conceded 3 against Fulham it never felt like one of 'those' performances.............even though I despair at times at what I see as his negativity I feel he sort of knows what he's doing  - even if its not what I would do, even though I think he's made mistakes.

And I do like all of his signings.

[terrytini]

5 hours ago, AshVilla said:

If any point during next season were more than 15 points away from the top 2 Bruce should be sacked immediately.

Enough of the excuses the players we have should be performing a hell of alot better than they have been so far.

Seems generous IMO - I would say we need to be in the Top 2/3 all season.  Given that after 11  games - virtually a 1/4 of the season - he will have had 46 matches in charge, two Windows, a pre-season and all his own players, I would say a reasonable expectation would be 22 Points - .that's what the Top 2 will have - (6 Wins, 4 Draws, 1 Defeat) I wouldn't think 7 Points (15 away from top 2) would be remotely acceptable........what would ?.........maybe18 ?.....16 at worst ?....even 16 (4 Wins 4 Draws 3 Defeats !!) would mean the rest of the season we would have to play out of our skins and would be a sign it was going to be a battle to stay in the hunt.

2 Points per game from the Off isn't unreasonable - any side challenging for the Top of any League has to manage that.

Edited May 8, 2017 by terrytini

[markavfc40]

55 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

I'm not sure I agree with taking 10 games then claiming the rest as stopped going backwards. It's the same season, we've continued to drop. We've gone from premier league to bottom half championship, that's not going in the right direction that's continuing on a downward spiral. If we finish higher next year then you can claim it but it's a weak claim right now IMO. 

 

Maybe I am not explaining it very well mate. I just think the 6 seasons before this one we were obviously going backwards. This season you would have hoped we'd have stemmed that tide from the get go but we didn't and went 11 games, 12 with the cup game, and got one win which suggested despite the changes the loser mentality remained at the club and it was still going backwards.

No one could suggest Bruce has overseen a massive turnaround and we have gone rapidly forwards. His points per game over a season would give you 69 points. That would have put us 9th, the season before 7th. I think had that have been the case we'd not have considered it a great season by any means but it would have been one that suggested we'd stopped the rot and could now build from a base of at least being a club on a steady footing, which is exactly where I think we now are. 

We'll never know if Bruce had arrived when RDM did if he could have done better than the 1.5 points per game he averaged coming in 2 months into the season. I'm only guessing but my feeling is that he would have done. We will soon find out though I guess but I think that a pre season on top of the 6 months he has already been here will see us hit the ground running next season. If we don't he will rightly suffer the same fate as RDM.

[sheepyvillian]

The plea for a clean slate implies Bruce has been found wanting , and one so, so end of the season performance , I'm afraid, doesn't exactly fill me with optimising. 

[villa4europe]

I hadn't even noticed until just, we finished below Cardiff, Bruce took over on the 12th October, we had 10 points, spent £25-£35m (?) finished on 62 points

warnick took over on the 5th October, they had 8 points, spent >£1m, finished on 62 points

cardiff were **** woeful but to a man they know what to do, they're cloggers who are well organised and run round a bit whilst kicking people and scrapping, I still don't know what Bruce actually does all week

he doesn't get a clean slate from me, there wasn't even baby steps in the right direction that I saw, my initial opinion of him was get us promoted and **** him off rather than give him the Prem money, I'm not renewing next year, I would like to say it's because I don't like his brand of football but I like I said I don't even think he's got one and I can't waste more money on chancers going through the motions every week, the players are still lazy as **** playing for themselves, I honestly don't see anythings changed 

[DaveAV1]

I think that people's support for Steve Bruce is commendable and given for all the right reasons, however in my opinion it is misguided. Almost every supporting post is finished with the caveat along the lines of, if he hasn't done well in the first 10 games or so then he should go. Some people are convinced he should be given those first games, but aren't particularly convinced that he will be successful in those games.

It's those precious first few games that will set the tone for the rest of the season. So why risk them in the hands of a man who has barely filled anyone with great confidence that he can do what is required? It almost seems that we are afraid of what might happen if we roll the dice again, and that is a real fear which I share. However those games at the start of next season are just too valuable to trust to hope and luck.

Of course it's always a risk and I've said before that letting Steve Bruce go without a proper plan in place is worse than keeping him. We can only hope that the club is better run now and we have a proper, joined up thinking plan for life with or without SB. Few of us, if any of us, really know the thoughts of the hierarchy but the next few weeks will show if we're finally well run with proper football brains, or the club is just crossing it's fingers and hoping for the best like the rest of us.

Edited May 8, 2017 by DaveAV1

[DCJonah]

8 hours ago, villa4europe said:

I hadn't even noticed until just, we finished below Cardiff, Bruce took over on the 12th October, we had 10 points, spent £25-£35m (?) finished on 62 points

warnick took over on the 5th October, they had 8 points, spent >£1m, finished on 62 points

cardiff were **** woeful but to a man they know what to do, they're cloggers who are well organised and run round a bit whilst kicking people and scrapping, I still don't know what Bruce actually does all week

he doesn't get a clean slate from me, there wasn't even baby steps in the right direction that I saw, my initial opinion of him was get us promoted and **** him off rather than give him the Prem money, I'm not renewing next year, I would like to say it's because I don't like his brand of football but I like I said I don't even think he's got one and I can't waste more money on chancers going through the motions every week, the players are still lazy as **** playing for themselves, I honestly don't see anythings changed 

Wow, that opening paragraph ruins a lot of excuses for him. 

I'd imagine if we'd hired Warnock and had the exact same results and performances there would be no call for stability. 

Bruce is very fortunate that he's landed this job when the owner is desperate for stability. 

[DCJonah]

9 hours ago, markavfc40 said:

 

Maybe I am not explaining it very well mate. I just think the 6 seasons before this one we were obviously going backwards. This season you would have hoped we'd have stemmed that tide from the get go but we didn't and went 11 games, 12 with the cup game, and got one win which suggested despite the changes the loser mentality remained at the club and it was still going backwards.

No one could suggest Bruce has overseen a massive turnaround and we have gone rapidly forwards. His points per game over a season would give you 69 points. That would have put us 9th, the season before 7th. I think had that have been the case we'd not have considered it a great season by any means but it would have been one that suggested we'd stopped the rot and could now build from a base of at least being a club on a steady footing, which is exactly where I think we now are. 

We'll never know if Bruce had arrived when RDM did if he could have done better than the 1.5 points per game he averaged coming in 2 months into the season. I'm only guessing but my feeling is that he would have done. We will soon find out though I guess but I think that a pre season on top of the 6 months he has already been here will see us hit the ground running next season. If we don't he will rightly suffer the same fate as RDM.

I do get your point mate, I see there was improvement with some stats from RDM to Bruce. Could RDM have turned things round? We'll never know but the football was better and we looked more attacking so I wouldn't rule it out entirely. 

But for me, it's a season, we've once again finished low and if you put our league positions in a graph it would continue to be a downward trajectory. For me you can't even argue we finished the season heading in the right direction, we failed to meet the managers target of top 10 and the last few games saw us drop out of the top half. 

At the moment IMO there's no way to argue that as a club we've stopped going backwards and are heading in the right direction. That's the goal for next year but right now it's just not true. 

[jon_c]

That we improving because we got more points than the few previous years, is a bit of a fallacy. It doesn't take into account how awful the majority of championship teams are. For example, Boro will come down and perform next season and they too were poor in the premier league. Newcastle were rubbish their last year in the prem and they breezed it. 

[Stevo985]

16 hours ago, BOF said:

I'm all for keeping Bruce at the moment, but I think the term 'clean slate' is a misnomer.  He has had 35 games and a transfer window in order to not only attempt promotion, but to assess what he has here and what he needs to be promoted next season.  This can not be ignored.  He doesn't go into next season as a new manager at the club.  This history has to be a part of whatever 'slate' people are giving him, and I'm sure the good doctor will also be mindful of that.  We must go up next season.  It's irrelevant how clean the slate is.  That's not to say we need to be top from day 1.  It doesn't work like that.  Re- that point, I clarified that here and here.

Exactly this.

Clean slates are for new managers and new regimes.

This isn't a new regime. A clean slate implies we forget everything that happened this season.

 

Nobody should be doing that. We should be learning from this season and implementing the lessons learnt next season.

[sparrow1988]

He gets kudos for stabilising the club. He now has to progress. We have the bones of a good squad which just needs filling out a bit to cope with the number of games that we have down here. If a raft of new people come in, then I don't buy the excuse that they need time to settle in. Bruce is responsible for getting them settled along with the players already here during pre season or at the very least, their ability to settle needs to be assessed as part of the due diligence on player purchases. So I expect to see improvements in results and a clear idea of how to achieve these results. I don't care whether that is through Conte style scorpion like counter attacking or through obsessive control of the game through possession. I'm not bothered once we are competing at the top end of the league and title challengers.

[AJ]

If he begins the season as if he is not working with a clean slate, I might give him a clean slate. Same goes for the players.

[sexbelowsound]

I'm happy for him to have a preseason and hopefully get the players in that he wants etc, etc.

That being said I wouldn't bat an eyelid if he was sacked tomorrow. I remain unconvinced to say the least.