Will we give Bruce and the team a clean slate?

[Dr_Pangloss]

12 hours ago, Zatman said:

not a clean slate but I think he will get a 10 game grace period. If we arent in Top 6 by then or look like challenging then I think the board will bite the bullet on him

10 games is far too long, it's close to 20% of the season, he should get 5 games. 

[sexbelowsound]

9 minutes ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

10 games is far too long, it's close to 20% of the season, he should get 5 games. 

That's just not going to happen though is it. Unless of course we lose all 5.....

[Dr_Pangloss]

28 minutes ago, sexbelowsound said:

That's just not going to happen though is it. Unless of course we lose all 5.....

Well RDM had 12 games and it's widely accepted that his start killed any chance of us getting promoted (at least automatically) so we need to learn from this. If we're pottering around in the bottom half after 5 games then Bruce should go IMO, the goal has to be automatic promotion next season. 

[BOF]

This is why putting a number on it is making a rod for your own back.  We'll know pretty quickly whether we're going in the right direction.  It might be 5, it might be 10.  We'll know by how they're applying themselves.  Let's not get bogged down in numbers we can search back to quote months down the line. 

[Dr_Pangloss]

1 minute ago, BOF said:

This is why putting a number on it is making a rod for your own back.  We'll know pretty quickly whether we're going in the right direction.  It might be 5, it might be 10.  We'll know by how they're applying themselves.  Let's not get bogged down in numbers we can search back to quote months down the line. 

But BOF I like numbers.

[BOF]

Just now, Dr_Pangloss said:

But BOF I like numbers.

You know I do too, but there are just too many variables around a season's start, and as I showed elsewhere, eventual playoff and auto-promoted sides do a bit of bouncing around at the start before hitting their stride.

[ender4]

3 minutes ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

Well RDM had 12 games and it's widely accepted that his start killed any chance of us getting promoted (at least automatically) so we need to learn from this. If we're pottering around in the bottom half after 5 games then Bruce should go IMO, the goal has to be automatic promotion next season. 

Must have a strong start, but i wouldn't sack him after 5 games, thats just crazy. 

 

[It's Your Round]

Just a thought, what did the table look like after 5 games last season? Did it have any massive bearing on the table in May? 

Lets have a look... 

 

Sheffield Wednesday, Reading and Leeds were all in the bottom half. I remember Wednesday fans complaining about how rubbish they were at that time, look where they are now. 

 

[It's Your Round]

5 games really isn't enough unless we lose every one badly. 

[markavfc40]

10 hours ago, DCJonah said:

But for me, it's a season, we've once again finished low and if you put our league positions in a graph it would continue to be a downward trajectory.

In fairness mate we could have finished top of the championship and it still would have shown as a downward trajectory on a graph.

Of course comparing bottom of the Prem to 13th in the Championship on paper it appears we have gone backwards. Consider it this way though that when Bruce arrived we sat 20th in the Championship before his first game. We finished in 13th so no longer going backwards. When he arrived we were averaging less than a point a game. Under him we averaged 1.5 points a game so no longer going backwards. We have gone from winning 1 game in 11 in the league when he arrived  (a 9% win percentage ) to having won 15 of our last 35 (a 43% win percentage) again no longer going backwards. In terms of playing at VP we have gone from 3 wins in 18 months to having won 10 in the last 6 months.

The above are all steps in the right direction. Not major ones but ones that tell you that the rot has stopped and we now have a stable base to build from. I no longer go to games expecting us to lose. I no longer get to the last 10 minutes expecting us to crumble and concede a late goal. I now see a team on the pitch that at the very least in the main will give their all and will not completely fold in the face of adversity even if not playing well. Pre Bruce I hadn’t seen that for a long time.

I accept that the football has been turgid at times and Bruce has to take responsibility for that but I also understand that he inherited a squad who had been together for a couple of months, a squad that was lacking in certain areas, a squad that had a poor start to the season that was lacking in confidence and the loser mentality from previous seasons still lingered. He has had to try to instil some belief in them and I think he has done that. Where he has failed is in getting them to gel and come up with a set formation. I think that is tough though when you are playing two games a week and contending with injuries and suspensions all whilst getting to know a group of players who had only been together for a couple of months and still trying to get to know each other’s games. This issue was further complicated by trying to integrate another half a dozen players in January.

He won’t face those issues next season. I expect the incomings to be minimal and only a handful of players to come in. I think he will want a set formation and I think pre season allows him to do that and it allows the players to cement some partnerships on the pitch and understandings of each other’s games. Bruce knows better than most what is needed to get out of this division having done it four times. He knows that the form under him and the way we played won’t achieve that. He has stated that himself. I don’t think for a second we will start next season and look disjointed like we did for much of this one. I think we will look like a team and just as the top 6 from this season all benefited from some stability in terms of having a manager in place since at least last June we too will benefit from that stability and continuity, perhaps even more so under a manager who is so qualified in achieving success in this division.

Edited May 9, 2017 by markavfc40

[srsmithusa]

1 hour ago, markavfc40 said:

In fairness mate we could have finished top of the championship and it still would have shown as a downward trajectory on a graph.

Of course comparing bottom of the Prem to 13th in the Championship on paper it appears we have gone backwards. Consider it this way though that when Bruce arrived we sat 20th in the Championship before his first game. We finished in 13th so no longer going backwards. When he arrived we were averaging less than a point a game. Under him we averaged 1.5 points a game so no longer going backwards. We have gone from winning 1 game in 11 in the league when he arrived  (a 9 % win percentage ) to having won 15 of our last 35 (a 43% win percentage) again no longer going backwards. In terms of playing at VP we have gone from 3 wins in 18 months to having won 10 in the last 6 months.

The above are all steps in the right direction. Not major ones but ones that tell you that the rot has stopped and we now have a stable base to build from. I no longer go to games expecting us to lose. I no longer get to the last 10 minutes expecting us to crumble and concede a late goal. I now see a team on the pitch that at the very least in the main will give their all and will not completely fold in the face of adversity even if not playing well. Pre Bruce I hadn’t seen that for a long time.

I accept that the football has been turgid at times and Bruce has to take responsibility for that but I also understand that he inherited a squad who had been together for a couple of months, a squad that was lacking in certain areas, a squad that had a poor start to the season that was lacking in confidence and the loser mentality from previous seasons still lingered. He has had to try to instil some belief in them and I think he has done that. Where he has failed is in getting them to gel and come up with a set formation. I think that is tough though when you are playing two games a week and contending with injuries and suspensions all whilst getting to know a group of players who had only been together for a couple of months and still trying to get to know each other’s games. This issue was further complicated by trying to integrate another half a dozen players in January.

He won’t face those issues next season. I expect the incomings to be minimal and only a handful of players to come in. I think he will want a set formation and I think pre season allows him to do that and it allows the players to cement some partnerships on the pitch and understandings of each other’s games. Bruce knows better than most what is needed to get out of this division having done it four times. He knows that the form under him and the way we played won’t achieve that. He has stated that himself. I don’t think for a second we will start next season and look disjointed like we did for much of this one. I think we will look like a team and just as the top 6 from this season all benefited from some stability in terms of having a manager in place since at least last June we too will benefit from that stability and continuity, perhaps even more so under a manager who is so qualified in achieving success in this division.

The excuses for Bruce still drive me nuts... because they never end.  Let me give you a look ahead to this thread in August.  "Kodjia is still hurt and not back yet."  or optimistically " Kodjia is still recovering and not back to his best yet."   "We have 3 or 4 new players trying to adjust to new partnerships."  "This team finished badly, and had a disappointing season, so their confidence is still shot."  "I've seen so much worse in my 400 years supporting Villa, he will get us back, I'm sure of it."  "You can't think firing him now would be good, who would we get to come here in mid-season?"  "we're still trying to find that right combination of players to click"  (Plus, Baker's out with a head injury, Green got that silly red card and missed some games, plus a thousand problems that every team faces every year... but somehow they are all important and valid excuses for Bruce.)

You "accept that the football has been turgid at times and Bruce has to take responsibility for that."  to me, was the most sense you made.  He should take responsibility for that. And being responsible for bad performance generally means the sack. (and MarkAVFC, I'm not trying to single you out.  It's the constant litany of excuses that drives me bonkers.  These same excuses were not good enough for previous managers and they should not be good enough for Bruce.)

We have not had a manager in my memory that has been handed constant excuses the way this guy has.  I don't get it.  He has had more time than several (RDM and Garde at least.)  More money than most. (anybody but RDM?).  And has done a marginal job, at best.  The football is still hard to fathom.  They players all seem to be playing from different manuals.  The results are better than RDM, but they are not good enough.   

I truly hope they will be much, much, better, because I think he's going to be here a while.  But i still contend that the habit of constantly making excuses for poor results is the very culture that has killed us, and it bothers me that so many are still in that culture and excuse the manager no matter what the product we can see.

[srsmithusa]

oh, I forgot "we were unrealistically optimistic not to realize the shit hole was even deeper that we thought, nobody could possibly get us out of it any faster."  "these things take years, turning it around in less than 12 months was always unrealistic."

[Morley_crosses_to_Withe]

Everyone gets a clean slate, but they all need to take a long hard look at themselves over the summer.

Bruce needs to work out why we look so goal shy. He needs to decide upon his best eleven and what formation will make them most effective. He needs to think of a plan B, C and so on. He needs to work out how we can stop relying on Kodija. He has to be honest with himself about Lansbury and Hourihane; decide whether it's a failed experiment and they're our Gerrard and Lampard. He needs to look at Jedinak and think about whether, despite his good performances, we might need someone younger and more dynamic. He has to be ruthless about what players can't take the pressure and responsibility of playing for this huge football club and get rid of them.

The players need to look at themselves. They need to take responsibility for their own poor performances once they've crossed the white line. One of the greatest ever coaches in the NFL tells his players to: "Do your job". Our players need to do just that. Stop hiding behind each other or the manager. If you can't take it at Villa Park, find a smaller club to run back to. If you can't find your teammate with a simple pass, there are summer soccer schools for kids that can teach you. Do your **** jobs.

The club as a whole needs to find hungry players who aren't just here for the pay day. They need to stop wasting money; we need to calm down our wage bill. Players should be here because we're Aston Villa and not simply a cash cow. They need to start identifying those of the right character. They have to know when to pull the plug on Steve Bruce and have plans in case he does fail. We need a football philosophy in mind so we don't just lurch from one style of manager to another. 

There's still a lot to be done, but it'll be a new season and everyone will get a clean slate. 

Edited May 9, 2017 by Morley_crosses_to_Withe

[DaveAV1]

Seems like Brucie is getting slated either way 

[eddiemunster]

21 hours ago, TRO said:

We came down with a punctured tyre.......we have spent this season taking off the tyre and repairing the tube......we should be back in the race next season.

 

Sorry mate, but we came down in a "British Leylandesque" pile of crap that was rusted to feck, had the wheels removed, up on bricks, having had the engine and gear box drop out.

We have spent a season replacing various parts on the aforementioned wreck, and its now back on the road, how it goes from now to the new season remains to be seen.

In answer to the opening question, my answer would be a clean slate till the first 45 minutes of the new season. If we are the same as this season, then get rid of Bruce, but I feel we need to get rid of a lot of the coaching team at Bodymoor Heath asap first.

[TRO]

45 minutes ago, eddiemunster said:

Sorry mate, but we came down in a "British Leylandesque" pile of crap that was rusted to feck, had the wheels removed, up on bricks, having had the engine and gear box drop out.

We have spent a season replacing various parts on the aforementioned wreck, and its now back on the road, how it goes from now to the new season remains to be seen.

In answer to the opening question, my answer would be a clean slate till the first 45 minutes of the new season. If we are the same as this season, then get rid of Bruce, but I feel we need to get rid of a lot of the coaching team at Bodymoor Heath asap first.

just being euphemistic.

you giving him that long 45 minutes......you're so easy going.

[TRO]

4 hours ago, srsmithusa said:

oh, I forgot "we were unrealistically optimistic not to realize the shit hole was even deeper that we thought, nobody could possibly get us out of it any faster."  "these things take years, turning it around in less than 12 months was always unrealistic."

I'm just waiting for the Harry Redknapp example from someone.

only been in the job for 3 games and sorted it for 'em.

 

[TRO]

5 hours ago, srsmithusa said:

The excuses for Bruce still drive me nuts... because they never end.  Let me give you a look ahead to this thread in August.  "Kodjia is still hurt and not back yet."  or optimistically " Kodjia is still recovering and not back to his best yet."   "We have 3 or 4 new players trying to adjust to new partnerships."  "This team finished badly, and had a disappointing season, so their confidence is still shot."  "I've seen so much worse in my 400 years supporting Villa, he will get us back, I'm sure of it."  "You can't think firing him now would be good, who would we get to come here in mid-season?"  "we're still trying to find that right combination of players to click"  (Plus, Baker's out with a head injury, Green got that silly red card and missed some games, plus a thousand problems that every team faces every year... but somehow they are all important and valid excuses for Bruce.)

You "accept that the football has been turgid at times and Bruce has to take responsibility for that."  to me, was the most sense you made.  He should take responsibility for that. And being responsible for bad performance generally means the sack. (and MarkAVFC, I'm not trying to single you out.  It's the constant litany of excuses that drives me bonkers.  These same excuses were not good enough for previous managers and they should not be good enough for Bruce.)

We have not had a manager in my memory that has been handed constant excuses the way this guy has.  I don't get it.  He has had more time than several (RDM and Garde at least.)  More money than most. (anybody but RDM?).  And has done a marginal job, at best.  The football is still hard to fathom.  They players all seem to be playing from different manuals.  The results are better than RDM, but they are not good enough.   

I truly hope they will be much, much, better, because I think he's going to be here a while.  But i still contend that the habit of constantly making excuses for poor results is the very culture that has killed us, and it bothers me that so many are still in that culture and excuse the manager no matter what the product we can see.

reasons not excuses.

• A reason merely explains something
• An excuse justifies the fault.

To my knowledge many folk have explained why they think Steve Bruce will eventually succeed.....They have given their reasons for believing so.....That to me is not making an excuse.

Steve Bruce himself has acknowledged the poor standard of play and in my mind intends to fix it.....never heard him once blame another manager, owner or CEO.

All I have read opposing that, is the football is shit.....and it is, there is no denying that, but its like a broken record, we all know it, not condoning it, but know it.....its what you do to change it is where the opinions differ.

 

Edited May 9, 2017 by TRO

[srsmithusa]

57 minutes ago, TRO said:

reasons not excuses.

• A reason merely explains something
• An excuse justifies the fault.

To my knowledge many folk have explained why they think Steve Bruce will eventually succeed.....They have given their reasons for believing so.....That to me is not making an excuse.

Steve Bruce himself has acknowledged the poor standard of play and in my mind intends to fix it.....never heard him once blame another manager, owner or CEO.

All I have read opposing that, is the football is shit.....and it is, there is no denying that, but its like a broken record, we all know it, not condoning it, but know it.....its what you do to change it is where the opinions differ.

 

One man's reason is another man's excuse.  The differences are subtle.  I will agree that stating reasons why you think he will succeed in the future is not an excuse.

I'm glad you and he can see how bad we are.  You and I are not responsible to fix that.  He is, and he has not done it (yet).  Otherwise we wouldn't be agreeing that "the football is shit."

The next question then is, is he held accountable for that failure or not.  Reasons why you think he will get it right next month are reasons.  Reasons are also things that he could not possibly be expected to hold any control or influence over.  When he got here, the team was unbalanced.... that was a reason.  After a rebuilt midfield with big financial support, the team being unbalanced has become an excuse.

"reasons" why he has not gotten it right already, are mostly excuses (IMO).  They are offered with the intent to "excuse" his failure to fix the playing issues.  It's what he is doing to change it, that I have my problem and see people (not him) making a ton of excuses for him.

 

 

 

 

 

[markavfc40]

6 hours ago, srsmithusa said:

oh, I forgot "we were unrealistically optimistic not to realize the shit hole was even deeper that we thought, nobody could possibly get us out of it any faster."  "these things take years, turning it around in less than 12 months was always unrealistic."

Has anyone suggested it is going to take years? I don't think anyone has. I think what we have is a fair proportion of supporters who are understanding of the fact that half a dozen years of decline, recovering from one of the worst seasons in our history, the dire form we started the first two months of this season in, will take longer than 6 months to fix.

This club has had a losers mentality for years. Players have had zero belief. Pre Bruce we had won 4 games in 18 months. Hadn't won away from home for 14 months, this season had won 1 in 12 including a defeat to Luton. Unfortunately you can't just wipe all that under the carpet and magically turn things around. No manager could. It takes time to rebuild a club. 

I think the losing mentality has gone now. I think the players have belief. What we don't have is a settled formation and aside from Chester and Baker we have no partnerships on the pitch. We have a group of good individuals on paper who have not yet evolved into a team. Bruce does't get excused here as he has chopped and changed the formation and personnel too often but I think that is what can often happen when you come into a club part way through a season, are trying to get to know players still trying to get to know each other and you are having to use competitive games to experiment rather than the ideal scenario of pre season training/friendlies.

I think next season we will reap the benefits of Bruce's time here already. I think he will have learned plenty about the players, will know the 4 or 5 players he needs to add to the squad and will know exactly how he wants the team to play to ensure we get promotion.

Edited May 9, 2017 by markavfc40