bobzy Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 Just now, Rodders said: one thing that needs to change pronto, is FPTP. The idea of a safe seat regardless of colour is just so intrinsically anti-democratic and exclusionary in its make up, I actually find it absurd we still have it today, not to mention the problem of having the same vote to elect a local representative, yet is marketed ubiquitously as a judgement on who is prime minister. If we accept we'll always focus on a leader of some sort, then let that leader have their own election. Absolutely spot on. FPTP is absolutely terrible. Last election, SNP got 1.45m votes and have 56 seats. Lib Dems had 2.42m votes and 8 seats. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 (edited) 3 minutes ago, mykeyb said: Flip side of your coin. Can you point out to me where I've said I'm voting for <x> because they aren't Conservative? Or where I've said I can't vote Conservative because of what they did 30 years ago? I'm voting on what the parties actually stand for. Edited June 8, 2017 by bobzy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 One of the most unfair things about the current system is that the incumbents get to choose the date of the election. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colhint Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 3 minutes ago, bobzy said: Absolutely spot on. FPTP is absolutely terrible. Last election, SNP got 1.45m votes and have 56 seats. Lib Dems had 2.42m votes and 8 seats. careful of what you wish for, UKIP nutters got 4m votes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddywhack Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 16 minutes ago, bobzy said: Yup. The "general" vote will be for a Conservative government. The reasoning from this forum of those voting Conservative (small selection) and my mates voting Conservative (small selection) is based on "Corbyn", "they aren't Labour". Nothing about what the Conservatives will do or what they like about the Conservatives. It's pathetic. It's the general public. I think that works both ways. I've heard 'anybody but May' a lot the last few weeks and some people are voting 'tactically' within their constituencies just to get the tories out. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Rodders Posted June 8, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted June 8, 2017 2 minutes ago, bobzy said: Absolutely spot on. FPTP is absolutely terrible. Last election, SNP got 1.45m votes and have 56 seats. Lib Dems had 2.42m votes and 8 seats. It's always said to me that it would give more seats to UKIP when I've argued it in the past, well fair enough! Then it would actually represent opinion, including Green. You'd not have to **** about with tactical voting and would allow you to go forward more happily with the party you're most aligned with more often. I do think a system that suppressed say UKIP sentiment led to BREXIT being a surprise, as that voice had been marginalised for years. Perhaps if it had more exposure in parliament debates and discussion would have happened earlier, and it wouldn't have all been condensed into a 3 month campaign period. Time enough to sort the lies from the facts. Maybe, that's speculation admittedly. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 Just now, colhint said: careful of what you wish for, UKIP nutters got 4m votes Yeah, I know. But that's still more representative of the nation than 1 seat. It's a fairer system, even if it brings out those people (hi Brexit). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 2 minutes ago, colhint said: careful of what you wish for, UKIP nutters got 4m votes And that's democracy. I don't agree with their views but they earned those votes fairly. At the moment, it's painfully undemocratic. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHV Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 17 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: Thatcher still gets blamed for everything on VT , I'd say that was more entrenched than any views on Labour but I think the use of the words "disaster" and "never been able to cost anything" are fair game for anyone who has read their Manifesto ... I'm sure there is room for an "ahh but the Tory manifesto " as well ,which is fair comment , but in the case of Corbyn it's exactly what he's saying he will do that is scaring the Bejebus out of people The labour manifesto looks like a manifesto from the 1970's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 1 minute ago, Paddywhack said: I think that works both ways. I've heard 'anybody but May' a lot the last few weeks and some people are voting 'tactically' within their constituencies just to get the tories out. It's works both ways to an extent - but we're under a Conservative government. Wanting a change is different, it's anti-current policies. There are, of course, people who are tactically voting to go against the Conservatives because of entrenched views, I don't doubt that. My point was more that I am yet to hear anyone vote for the Conservatives in this general election because of any of their policies. My sample (very small) completely confirms that. The posters in this thread who have declared their vote have confirmed that. It's entirely anti-Labour rather than pro-Conservative, if that makes sense. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 2 minutes ago, KHV said: The labour manifesto looks like a manifesto from the 1970's What is it about it that you don't particularly like? What is it about the Conservative one that you do like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodders Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 from a time when the disparity between the richest and poorest was was much closer? Not bad to me. Before the long era of deregulation allowed the financial sector to go nuts? Sounds good to me. It doesn't have all the answers and it is more complicated than just investment alone, but investment as one element is essential - otherwise life is going to continue becoming truly shit for a lot of people. Privatizing everything continues a spectacular asymmetry in power between the provider and the consumer. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post BOF Posted June 8, 2017 Moderator Popular Post Share Posted June 8, 2017 I think the point @bobzy is making, and I agree from what I've been hearing, reading etc, is that in the Labour camp there are people who tick each of the boxes below, but in the Tory camp they only seem to ever tick box #2 I'm voting Labour because I like Corbyn's policies I don't like the Conservatives I'm voting Conservative because I like May's policies I don't like Labour 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mykeyb Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 (edited) 28 minutes ago, bobzy said: Can you point out to me where I've said I'm voting for <x> because they aren't Conservative? Or where I've said I can't vote Conservative because of what they did 30 years ago? I'm voting on what the parties actually stand for. Have you ever voted tory as you come across as a bit of a tory hater Edited June 8, 2017 by mykeyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mykeyb Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 10 minutes ago, BOF said: I think the point @bobzy is making, and I agree from what I've been hearing, reading etc, is that in the Labour camp there are people who tick each of the boxes below, but in the Tory camp they only seem to ever tick box #2 I'm voting Labour because I like Corbyn's policies I don't like the Conservatives I'm voting Conservative because I like May's policies I don't like Labour Shouldnt there be a third option under Im voting Labour? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted June 8, 2017 Moderator Share Posted June 8, 2017 1 minute ago, mykeyb said: Shouldnt there be a third option under Im voting Labour? I don't know. Should there? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post bobzy Posted June 8, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted June 8, 2017 Just now, mykeyb said: Have you ever voted tory as you come acroos as a bit of a tory hater Nope - I've voted Lib Dem and Green. Likely to vote Labour this time round, potentially Green though (I still align with them most, apparently). I'm obviously left-leaning. I don't particularly "hate" Tories. I agree much, much more with the policies that other parties are campaigning for, though. I also dislike the arrogance with which our current government has called a snap general election when they know they'll overwhelmingly win (having said they won't hold a snap general election, of course). Their campaigning has been terrible - a mix of empty slogans and attacks on Labour. The current PM cannot make decisions or answer straight questions (apparently neither can Conservative voters on what they like about the party) or even debate issues. I held a lot more respect for David Cameron as PM than I do Theresa May. Also, I don't actually care who people vote for persay. It's their right and their choice. I just wish it was based on actually liking what that party stood for. I don't believe that is the case for the majority of the people voting Conservative today. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodders Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 (edited) As someone deeply suspicious of tories, I would admit freely it would take an awful lot for me to ever vote for them at a General Election, in fact I'd probably spoil a ballot paper if I didn't like any of the alternatives. Fundamentally they are very different at their core philosophy, whereas Labour, Lib Dem, Green, and Plaid here in Wales have policies that I have sympathies for in greater measure. In my 4th GE I'll have voted for 3 different parties amongst those options. At a local level though, if I knew a local candidate / councillor and thought they would be good for the area and I felt he genuinely did have local issues at heart but we just differed on a couple of other policies I'd consider it, if the other candidates were spoons, but at national level? I just cannot see a likely scenario where I would be comfortable doing that. There's just too much I'm alright Jack philosophy about them. Not all of the MPs and people in the party sure, but too many of them for me to ever discount that element of it. Edited June 8, 2017 by Rodders 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 4 minutes ago, bobzy said: I also dislike the arrogance with which our current government has called a snap general election when they know they'll overwhelmingly win (having said they won't hold a snap general election, of course). To add to this, they've wasted weeks of valuable Article 50 time, then had the nerve to state 'We're focused on Brexit". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 22 minutes ago, BOF said: I think the point @bobzy is making, and I agree from what I've been hearing, reading etc, is that in the Labour camp there are people who tick each of the boxes below, but in the Tory camp they only seem to ever tick box #2 I'm voting Labour because I like Corbyn's policies I don't like the Conservatives I'm voting Conservative because I like May's policies I don't like Labour From what Im hearing people aren't voting labour because -They don't like Corbyn -They see labour as soft on immigration -They don't trust labours spending plans 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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