General Election 2017

[blandy]

Just now, darrenm said:

Nothing of the sort.

Would you mind explaining, Darren, what in my post and how what I wrote is "Stuff like this just helps the Tories. If you're happy doing that then fine"

[chrisp65]

it's infuriatingly simple

[Dr_Pangloss]

43 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Corbyn needs to point out to pensioners that the tory's are coming after their pensions.

He needs to point out to everyone that they are coming after the NHS.

He needs to point out to everyone that 'spreadsheet' Hammond messed up his first budget and now has warned he will be putting up taxes.

He needs to remind everyone of the existence of the tory hard right mental cases like Redwood.

He needs to ask if people are happy with the roll out of grammar schools.

He needs to promise a cross party fact and expert lead negotiating stance on Brexit. it's happening, let's not make it a Liam Fox economic melt down disaster.

Look like a leader, ram home some home truths about the liar May.

Repeat.

Repeat.

Repeat.

But he won't point any of these things out in an effective way. He's utterly useless.

[darrenm]

6 minutes ago, blandy said:

Would you mind explaining, Darren, what in my post and how what I wrote is "Stuff like this just helps the Tories. If you're happy doing that then fine"

I don't profess to know your political leaning. You may be Tory, Labour, Lib Dem, not aligned to any particular party, whatever. In the nicest possible way, I don't care.

What I do care about is the future of me and my children. It's currently being decimated by the Tories. I want them out and almost anyone else in.

It seems very likely that it will come down to how much Labour can claw back against the Tories without much involvement from anyone else. If Labour can mobilise grassroots support and lots of things carry on going against May, they can even swing enough seats to get a majority. I genuinely believe that.

But empty rhetoric about the leader of the Labour party -in the context of someone who wants them out- only serves to keep opinions as ignorant and bigoted as they are. He may not be a great leader and I have no personal affinity with him. I'm just backing what I see to be the best chance of Tory reprieve. I'm traditionally a Green.

[Awol]

13 minutes ago, darrenm said:

I don't profess to know your political leaning. You may be Tory, Labour, Lib Dem, not aligned to any particular party, whatever. In the nicest possible way, I don't care.

What I do care about is the future of me and my children. It's currently being decimated by the Tories. I want them out and almost anyone else in.

It seems very likely that it will come down to how much Labour can claw back against the Tories without much involvement from anyone else. If Labour can mobilise grassroots support and lots of things carry on going against May, they can even swing enough seats to get a majority. I genuinely believe that.

But empty rhetoric about the leader of the Labour party -in the context of someone who wants them out- only serves to keep opinions as ignorant and bigoted as they are. He may not be a great leader and I have no personal affinity with him. I'm just backing what I see to be the best chance of Tory reprieve. I'm traditionally a Green.

So pointing out that Corbyn is a moon howler leads to bigotry and ignorance? 

[Chindie]

1 hour ago, snowychap said:

@Chindie

Here's a piece from that same chap which could have gone in the stay or go thread but is equally pertinent in here given that we'll get lots of talk about mandates, strong leadership and all that jazz during the election campaign and after should the Tories be returned as the government (especially with an increased majority):

 

That summarises what a lot of us have been saying for a while. The 'Great Repeal Bill' should horrify us. The implication was they would scribble out EU references and leave as is, but nothing of the sort will happen. The Tories, with no scrutiny 'by necessity', will be empowered to rush through enormous swathes of legislation. It's terrifying. 

Hence another reason for Theresa May to rush through a chance to hammer in a more significant majority. She's got a golden ticket to Torify the nation like never before.

Look at the government benches, look who has power and influence in that party, and tell me your blood doesn't run cold.

And listen to the stuff that comes out it's faces, mouth. The speech she gave to call this opportunist election. Think of that person, for all the world a power mad authoritarian, being given the power to amend law without a check or balance.

It's horrifying.

[blandy]

20 minutes ago, darrenm said:

I don't profess to know your political leaning. You may be Tory, Labour, Lib Dem, not aligned to any particular party, whatever. In the nicest possible way, I don't care.

What I do care about is the future of me and my children. It's currently being decimated by the Tories. I want them out and almost anyone else in.

It seems very likely that it will come down to how much Labour can claw back against the Tories without much involvement from anyone else. If Labour can mobilise grassroots support and lots of things carry on going against May, they can even swing enough seats to get a majority. I genuinely believe that.

But empty rhetoric about the leader of the Labour party -in the context of someone who wants them out- only serves to keep opinions as ignorant and bigoted as they are. He may not be a great leader and I have no personal affinity with him. I'm just backing what I see to be the best chance of Tory reprieve. I'm traditionally a Green.

You must have missed all my posts, ever, in the politics threads (which would probably have been a wise decision on your part. Though the one where I replied to you saying how desperate I am to get rid of the tories, earlier on might give you a clue that I'm not a tory.

My "leaning" seems very similar on most things to yours - that survey thing yesterday shows a huge crossover between us. But you're right not to care.

Anyway, I guess the gist of our disagreement is on Corbyn as a leader. It's not empty rhetoric to cite examples (as I have done frequently) of where he's repeatedly fallen short in the leadership stakes. Sharing those examples and opinions (which if I might be so bold are every bit as thought through as your own) on a football message board, while at the same time slagging off May and the tories and the electoral system is not "helping the tories". It's voicing an opinion on the shocking state of politics in this country.

I'm not a supporter of any party as a rule. I'll vote Green this time, not because I agree with all their policies (I don't) or because it'll make any difference, but because where I do agree with them, I really agree with them very strongly, so my wasted, safe seat, vote will go to the party who most shares my concerns about things important to me.

So if you read this, now you know.

[darrenm]

15 minutes ago, blandy said:

You must have missed all my posts, ever, in the politics threads (which would probably have been a wise decision on your part. Though the one where I replied to you saying how desperate I am to get rid of the tories, earlier on might give you a clue that I'm not a tory.

My "leaning" seems very similar on most things to yours - that survey thing yesterday shows a huge crossover between us. But you're right not to care.

Anyway, I guess the gist of our disagreement is on Corbyn as a leader. It's not empty rhetoric to cite examples (as I have done frequently) of where he's repeatedly fallen short in the leadership stakes. Sharing those examples and opinions (which if I might be so bold are every bit as thought through as your own) on a football message board, while at the same time slagging off May and the tories and the electoral system is not "helping the tories". It's voicing an opinion on the shocking state of politics in this country.

I'm not a supporter of any party as a rule. I'll vote Green this time, not because I agree with all their policies (I don't) or because it'll make any difference, but because where I do agree with them, I really agree with them very strongly, so my wasted, safe seat, vote will go to the party who most shares my concerns about things important to me.

So if you read this, now you know.

Well yeah that's what confused me. I thought we had similar leanings but that would mean you have similar leanings to the only bloke who's got any chance (however small) of putting them into practice. So taking every opportunity to attack him just seems strange to me. I just assumed I'd got you wrong and you must be fairly right wing or something.

[villaglint]

50 minutes ago, Awol said:

So pointing out that Corbyn is a moon howler leads to bigotry and ignorance? 

hhhmm not seeking to defend Jezza here but not sure how you can square calling him a moon howler whilst stating a few posts back the party you most agree with is the UKIPS. 

ps I get you back the Brexit bit but how you swallow the rest... well I don't know. Although I did note they were remarkably low figures of agreement for all the parties. I'd be interested to here the story of AWOL utopia but maybe that's for another thread. 

[Awol]

1 minute ago, villaglint said:

hhhmm not seeking to defend Jezza here but not sure how you can square calling him a moon howler whilst stating a few posts back the party you most agree with is the UKIPS. 

ps I get you back the Brexit bit but how you swallow the rest... well I don't know. Although I did note they were remarkably low figures of agreement for all the parties. I'd be interested to here the story of AWOL utopia but maybe that's for another thread. 

You've got me mixed up with another poster I think, UKIP is a political slop tray that served its purpose - forcing the mainstream parties to address public euroscepticism via a referendum. They're now an utterly pointless outfit other than for light comedic relief.

On that website test my closest correlation was Conservative at 48%, but I'll spoil my ballot (for the first time) on 8th of June because I don't agree, trust or believe in any of them. 

[villaglint]

My apologies thought it was you that was 16% for UKIPS as top level of agreement and all the rest even lower. It stuck out because I thought that probably quite difficult to achieve in a questionnaire like that. Anyway obviously stuck out for the wrong person! 

[mjmooney]

2 hours ago, blandy said:

 

And play nice with the Greens, Lib Dems, SNP at times. They can take seats off tories where Labour can't.

This. Much as - like Corbyn - I would prefer an actual socialist government, the only practical alternative to the Tories atm is a broad left (Lab-LibDem-SNP-Plaid Cymru-Green) coalition. Do it. 

[Davkaus]

Corbyn is unelectable, but people think the Lib Dems will get more than a handful of seats, and the Greens more than 1. Sure.

[Chindie]

3 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

This. Much as - like Corbyn - I would prefer an actual socialist government, the only practical alternative to the Tories atm is a broad left (Lab-LibDem-SNP-Plaid Cymru-Green) coalition. Do it. 

Unfortunately, May and cronies have a very effective double barreled shotgun to take to that, which they'll reload and fire out as often as possible.

Coalition of chaos

Bang, stone dead any chance of such a coalition happening.

...Not that they need to say it though. It's got no chance of happening. They'd be afraid of cannibalising each others vote so will manufacture reasons to avoid it.

[blandy]

1 hour ago, darrenm said:

Well yeah that's what confused me. I thought we had similar leanings but that would mean you have similar leanings to the only bloke who's got any chance (however small) of putting them into practice. So taking every opportunity to attack him just seems strange to me. I just assumed I'd got you wrong and you must be fairly right wing or something.

Re the criticism I have of corbyn. Maybe if you (anyone) think of it in football terms as an analogy, supporters will want a manager out if their side is struggling, if they see bemusing selections, tactical mistakes, missing open goals, demoralised players...

none of that is supporting another side. It's just frustration that what ought to be better just isn't. 

[mjmooney]

1 minute ago, Chindie said:

Unfortunately, May and cronies have a very effective double barreled shotgun to take to that, which they'll reload and fire out as often as possible.

Coalition of chaos

Bang, stone dead any chance of such a coalition happening.

...Not that they need to say it though. It's got no chance of happening. They'd be afraid of cannibalising each others vote so will manufacture reasons to avoid it.

I'd normally be inclined to agree, but we live in strange times. 

[darrenm]

8 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

This. Much as - like Corbyn - I would prefer an actual socialist government, the only practical alternative to the Tories atm is a broad left (Lab-LibDem-SNP-Plaid Cymru-Green) coalition. Do it. 

The danger of playing with the SNP is this:

Daily Mail are desperate to make one with Sturgeon and Corbyn

[darrenm]

2 minutes ago, blandy said:

Re the criticism I have of corbyn. Maybe if you (anyone) think of it in football terms as an analogy, supporters will want a manager out if their side is struggling, if they see bemusing selections, tactical mistakes, missing open goals, demoralised players...

none of that is supporting another side. It's just frustration that what ought to be better just isn't. 

Good analogy

[mjmooney]

Just now, darrenm said:

The danger of playing with the SNP is this:

Daily Mail are desperate to make one with Sturgeon and Corbyn

Let 'em. The fact is that the Tories do NOT represent the majority of the population. If enough previous non-voters decide they've had enough of them and turn out in numbers, all bets are off. It's a big 'if', I know, but traditional politics is in a weird state of flux everywhere atm. You never know. 

[blandy]

5 minutes ago, darrenm said:

The danger of playing with the SNP is this:

Daily Mail are desperate to make one with Sturgeon and Corbyn

It is, but if Corbyn hadn't recently indicated how relaxed he is about Scottish independence (another blooper) he could have talked, now, about how labour shares a number of values with the SNP, whilst rejecting their rampant nationalism and desire to break up the U.K.  To try to win back some lost votes in Scotland.