bickster Posted March 21, 2023 Moderator Share Posted March 21, 2023 41 minutes ago, villakram said: Paint anything I say as Russian Certainly explains why most of us need a universal translator to understand your posts 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UpTheVilla26 Posted March 21, 2023 Share Posted March 21, 2023 Putin looks so smug in the pics with that Chinese tit. Basically if you wanted a picture, with 2 people in it, that would describe the term bell-end, there it is. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa89 Posted March 21, 2023 Share Posted March 21, 2023 How does the Chinese Dictator plan to turn up in Ukraine after this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted March 21, 2023 Share Posted March 21, 2023 1 hour ago, villakram said: You are half projecting and half arguing with yourself. Paint anything I say as Russian, so it can be easily dismissed as they are an "other" and by implication different from us and evil. Going back to where all this started. The not an inch, and keep fighting until every inch is returned position, is a naive and comfortable thing to say when one lies very far away. Hence the bizarre world we live in where the possibility for a cease fire during a horrible war is objectionable for those on the "good" side. Being willing to hand over large chunks of a country to a foreign invader is also very easy to do from the comfort of your armchair far away from the issue. If the Ukrainians who are there are choosing not to do that then the least we can do is help them. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted March 21, 2023 Moderator Share Posted March 21, 2023 2 minutes ago, villa89 said: How does the Chinese Dictator plan to turn up in Ukraine after this? I don't think it's ever been planned, has it? I read somewhere it was going to be a zoom type job. Might be mistaken, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted March 21, 2023 Moderator Share Posted March 21, 2023 1 hour ago, villakram said: The not an inch, and keep fighting until every inch is returned position, is a naive and comfortable thing to say when one lies very far away. Hence the bizarre world we live in where the possibility for a cease fire during a horrible war is objectionable for those on the "good" side. Ukraine seems to find it pretty simple to adopt the "keep fighting until every inch is returned position" and they're not "very far away". Which doesn't render your point invalid, but it adds the context that if the Ukrainians can adopt that position, maybe the West and USA etc. can at least take their "comfortable" stance to support what Ukraine wants. In terms of a ceasefire (whether temporary or permanent), I think the key is helping Ukraine stop suffering the death and destruction caused by Russia's attacks and invasion, without artificially awarding a "win" to Russia - letting it keep what it's grabbed and a defeat to Ukraine (losing what it's lost) - any settlement needs to be "just and fair". rewarding the invader cannot be accepted by Ukraine and so the west (and the same applies to China) should not try and impose an unjust ceasefire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted March 21, 2023 Share Posted March 21, 2023 2 hours ago, villakram said: You are half projecting and half arguing with yourself. Paint anything I say as Russian, so it can be easily dismissed as they are an "other" and by implication different from us and evil. Going back to where all this started. The not an inch, and keep fighting until every inch is returned position, is a naive and comfortable thing to say when one lies very far away. Hence the bizarre world we live in where the possibility for a cease fire during a horrible war is objectionable for those on the "good" side. Not trying to add to a pile on, but last time they took Crimea, I’m sure if they’re just allowed to take that southern strip this time that will provide lasting peace. They just need a little Lebensraum and that will be the end of it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshVilla Posted March 21, 2023 Share Posted March 21, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, villa89 said: How does the Chinese Dictator plan to turn up in Ukraine after this? Xi goes straight to Kiev in a chopper. Russian forces shoot down/sabotage said chopper midflight killing him claiming it was Ukraine/Nato that done it. China send the kitchen sink at Ukraine/Nato out of revenge. WW3 begins. Edited March 21, 2023 by AshVilla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BleedClaretAndBlue Posted March 21, 2023 Share Posted March 21, 2023 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted March 21, 2023 Share Posted March 21, 2023 28 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Not trying to add to a pile on, but last time they took Crimea, I’m sure if they’re just allowed to take that southern strip this time that will provide lasting peace. They just need a little Lebensraum and that will be the end of it. As if lebensraum would be needed in the largest country in the world with less people per square miles than bleedin Tannu Tuva anyway.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted March 21, 2023 Share Posted March 21, 2023 @villakram I know you might want to respond to all these people arguing with you / mocking you, but as arguing is bad I’m afraid you’re not allowed to. All the people that disagree with you have got together and decided the best thing to do is let everyone that disagrees with you say whatever they want to you, and then we’ll declare the ceasefire as soon as they’re all done. I hope you agree this is in your best interests, and in fact is the only moral way to resolve this situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted March 21, 2023 Share Posted March 21, 2023 2 hours ago, BleedClaretAndBlue said: I have to say, who thought sending “nuclear” weapons for use against Russia was a good idea? It was always going to be interpreted as Putin is suggesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted March 21, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted March 21, 2023 5 minutes ago, Genie said: I have to say, who thought sending “nuclear” weapons for use against Russia was a good idea? It was always going to be interpreted as Putin is suggesting. They are not nuclear weapons. They're just tank shells. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted March 21, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted March 21, 2023 Please give me a straight plain English answer @villakram. Imagine one really cold winter the Bering Strait seriously froze over and Russians started pouring over it. They work their way down the Eastern Coast taking control of all the states from Maine down to Florida. They bomb the shit out of every city totally Levelling all buildings in New York, tipping The Statue of Liberty into the sea. Totally raze Philidelphia to the ground. Would you decide if they stopped there for a bit it would be OK to let them keep and settle those lands (after they'd enslaved or murdered all the Americans previously living there) and just keep the rest of what USA retained? Plain answer, would that be OK with you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted March 21, 2023 Share Posted March 21, 2023 4 minutes ago, sidcow said: Please give me a straight plain English answer @villakram. Imagine one really cold winter the Bering Strait seriously froze over and Russians started pouring over it. They work their way down the Eastern Coast taking control of all the states from Maine down to Florida. They bomb the shit out of every city totally Levelling all buildings in New York, tipping The Statue of Liberty into the sea. Totally raze Philidelphia to the ground. Would you decide if they stopped there for a bit it would be OK to let them keep and settle those lands (after they'd enslaved or murdered all the Americans previously living there) and just keep the rest of what USA retained? Plain answer, would that be OK with you? For context, do we need to know if he’s a Native American? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted March 21, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted March 21, 2023 7 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: For context, do we need to know if he’s a Native American? Good point. If he isn't he really should be handing his house and money over to one before returning to The UK, Ireland, Holland, Spain or wherever. Undo the damage his ancestors caused. It's only right. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa89 Posted March 21, 2023 Share Posted March 21, 2023 1 hour ago, Genie said: I have to say, who thought sending “nuclear” weapons for use against Russia was a good idea? It was always going to be interpreted as Putin is suggesting. And could anyone care less about Putin's idle threats. He's been making them for a year now and they are as meaningless now as they were when he first made them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted March 21, 2023 Share Posted March 21, 2023 14 minutes ago, villa89 said: And could anyone care less about Putin's idle threats. He's been making them for a year now and they are as meaningless now as they were when he first made them. Idle threats? He’s pulverised several cities, killed hundreds of thousands of civilians, repeatedly targets the electric grid which millions rely on, shelled the shit out of a nuclear power station, he’s sent cruise missiles at maternity hospitals… He often ratchets up the attacks in response to the actions of the west. Using anything “nuclear” could just be asking for more trouble and probably should have been avoided imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted March 21, 2023 Share Posted March 21, 2023 2 hours ago, Genie said: I have to say, who thought sending “nuclear” weapons for use against Russia was a good idea? It was always going to be interpreted as Putin is suggesting. British depleted uranium is a nuclear weapon, the same way Russian lead bullets are chemical weapons. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentVillan Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 I mostly agree with the majority here, but where I concede a bit of ground to @villakram is that I’m really not convinced anymore that Ukraine has much of a prospect of reclaiming most of the Russian-controlled territory anymore. Russia has had time to regroup, work out how to get round sanctions, and there is ambivalence or tacit support from countries like China, India, etc. which is enough to keep them ticking along. Massive Russian losses in terms of “expendable” troops are now baked into their strategy, so can give the appearance that Ukraine is battering them into submission. Which is true if you care about human life; but less true if you are Vladimir Putin. The Ukrainians do care about their own people, and while that is clearly a good thing, it also narrows the kinds of things they can do vs the Russian zombie approach. At some point this is probably going to turn into a stalemate, if it hasn’t already, and then you are kind of left with no option but to reach a settlement which probably doesn’t mean returning the pre-2022 or pre-2014 borders. The Ukrainian sovereignty frame is useful (and I agree with it) but it gets caught up in the fact that NATO has a huge influence on Ukrainian success, and also the reality that sovereignty is just an ideal. It means very little if you can’t exercise it. I hope Ukraine rolls the Russians back, and I think that would be a good outcome, and wouldn’t trigger nuclear war or WWIII or whatever. But it seems like most likely outcome is a very unpopular and fractious negotiated settlement, with Russia controlling land that should be Ukraine’s. Most likely a Transnistria / Abkhazia / South Ossetia type situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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