Russia and its “Special Operation” in Ukraine

[Genie]

14 minutes ago, sidcow said:

When will the lesson be learned?

When will the lesson be learned?

How many more dictators must be wooed, appeased - good God, given immense privileges - before we learn?

You cannot reason with a tiger when your head is in its mouth.

A whole generation of world leaders will spend the next 20 years talking about how more should have been done sooner with Putin, you just know it.

”We” were given warning after warning and nobody did anything about it. Worse still plenty of people in the UK were happy to take some of the pennies that he threw this way.

[magnkarl]

1 hour ago, sidcow said:

When will the lesson be learned?

When will the lesson be learned?

How many more dictators must be wooed, appeased - good God, given immense privileges - before we learn?

You cannot reason with a tiger when your head is in its mouth.

I think we'll need to start looking at the tendrils and tentacles that Putin has had around certain groups in Western society for years. STWC, the hard left and hard right, anti-vaxxers, MAGA, Qanon, The yellow vests, EUs populist countries and parties and so on.

We'll need to figure out how to get these groups to realise how naive they've been, and that war is won with information and facts. Remove anyone from any office of power who supports Xi or Putin, figure out where their money is coming from and crush these finances before they arrive in our countries. 

In Ukraine we'll likely see what happened in previously occupied allied countries post WW2 when Russia is finally kicked out. Collaborators, murderers and especially people who have taken top political positions will likely either be sentenced to life in prison or receive the death penalty. Ukraine needs to root Russian influence totally out of their society. 

Edited March 21, 2023 by magnkarl

[villa89]

1 hour ago, sidcow said:

How many more dictators must be wooed, appeased - good God, given immense privileges - before we learn?

Look at Saudi Arabia, China, Qatar, etc. As long as you have something the west needs nobody will care if you're a despotic dictator. Europe needed cheap Russian Gas, so Putin was allowed to run wild. China released a virus onto the world that brought the world economy to a standstill but nobody dared blame them for their terrible lab standards and constant cover ups. 

Edited March 21, 2023 by villa89

[sidcow]

19 minutes ago, villa89 said:

Look at Saudi Arabia, China, Qatar, etc. As long as you have something the west needs nobody will care if you're a despotic dictator. Europe needed cheap Russian Gas, so Putin was allowed to run wild. China released a virus onto the world that brought the world economy to a standstill but nobody dared blame them for their terrible lab standards and constant cover ups. 

Yeah, it was more about the notion that Ukraine should just agree to his ceasefire agreement.

He's a a liar and untrustworthy. Kirby is absolutely right that he'll just take the time to rearm and regroup mean while retaining the land he's stolen waiting to go again and steal some more.

Yet Kirby is being portrayed as the bad guy in all this

You can't appease a dictator.

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

All the Wagner people (Ex prisoners) who are still arrive will start going home from today.  6 Month contract,  if you live.

I am sure they are welcome in Russia and will cause no problems at all.

[Genie]

12 minutes ago, Amsterdam_Neil_D said:

All the Wagner people (Ex prisoners) who are still arrive will start going home from today.  6 Month contract,  if you live.

I am sure they are welcome in Russia and will cause no problems at all.

I suspect they’ll be learning today that their tickets to war were 1 way.

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

3 minutes ago, Genie said:

I suspect they’ll be learning today that their tickets to war were 1 way.

I don't think so,  they will genuinely going home after 6 months.  I hope they all go and live in Moscow to be honest.

[Genie]

Just now, Amsterdam_Neil_D said:

I don't think so,  they will genuinely going home after 6 months.  I hope they all go and live in Moscow to be honest.

It would be quite funny if they cause havoc. They’ll probably be recalled to prison as soon as they go 1 mph over the speed limit.

I’d immediately leave the country if it was an option.

[The Fun Factory]

On 19/03/2023 at 18:20, Mr_Dogg said:

He's an old sick man. And he's wearing makeup. Donald Trump style.

He will probably live to 85, thanks to western health treatment in all probablility.

[villa89]

4 minutes ago, Amsterdam_Neil_D said:

I don't think so,  they will genuinely going home after 6 months.  I hope they all go and live in Moscow to be honest.

I imagine of the few that are left they'll be offered money to stay. If they decide to return to Russia they'll probably be shot or beaten until they change their minds. 

[Genie]

1 minute ago, villa89 said:

I imagine of the few that are left they'll be offered money to stay. If they decide to return to Russia they'll probably be shot or beaten until they change their minds. 

Same. I don’t think the plan was for them to ever be “free” again. Maybe by surviving they’ll be called traitors for not trying hard enough or labelled cowards.

[bickster]

53 minutes ago, Amsterdam_Neil_D said:

All the Wagner people (Ex prisoners) who are still arrive will start going home from today.  6 Month contract,  if you live.

I am sure they are welcome in Russia and will cause no problems at all.

I very much doubt there are many if any of the original intake left. I think it will be many months before someone gets a 6 month release, if it ever happens.

[brommy]

56 minutes ago, Genie said:

I suspect they’ll be learning today that their tickets to war were 1 way.

 

'Home free after six months...' but they'll have missed the small print

'... or after the war is won, whichever is the latter. Severe injury or death is a significant risk and will NOT lead to repatriation.'

[LondonLax]

The Wagner criminals have been heading back to Russia for a couple of months now, having done their time in Ukraine. There was an article in the Guardian a month back about some of them. 
 

Quote

Anatoly Salmin, a convicted thief and murderer, is home from prison years ahead of schedule, his reward for volunteering for a suicide mission in Russia’s war in Ukraine – and then managing to survive.

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/feb/10/wagner-convict-soldiers-return-from-ukraine-russia-mercenary-group

[villakram]

18 hours ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

Russia is right today because the USA did things wrong in the past.  

Russia have never done anything wrong.  But if they did,   the USA has done much worse. 

 

I'm happy that projecting like that makes you feel better about your opinions.

Meanwhile.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/03/17/iraq-invasion-ukraine-history-shadow/

“No one in the Biden administration today cares that [the Iraq War] ruined what credibility America had as a pillar of international order in the global south and gave Putin cover for his own atrocity,” wrote Juan Cole, a historian of the Middle East at the University of Michigan. “Who remembers anymore that, in 2003, we were Vladimir Putin?”""

 

or perhaps some of this might help.

https://consortiumnews.com/2023/03/20/iraq-20-years-chris-hedges-the-lords-of-chaos/

"The cheerleaders in the media for war — Thomas Friedman, David Remnick, Richard Cohen, George Packer, William Kristol, Peter Beinart, Bill Keller, Robert Kaplan, Anne Applebaum, Nicholas Kristof, Jonathan Chait, Fareed Zakaria, David Frum, Jeffrey Goldberg, David Brooks and Michael Ignatieff — were used to amplify the lies and discredit the handful of us, including Michael Moore, Robert Scheer and Phil Donahue, who opposed the war.

These courtiers were often motivated more by careerism than idealism. They did not lose their megaphones or lucrative speaking fees and book contracts once the lies were exposed, as if their crazed diatribes did not matter. They served the centers of power and were rewarded for it.

Many of these same pundits are pushing further escalation of the war in Ukraine, although most know as little about Ukraine or NATO’s provocative and unnecessary expansion to the borders of Russia as they did about Iraq."

The world is much more complicated than the good vs evil narrative.

 

[Anthony]

8 minutes ago, villakram said:

I'm happy that projecting like that makes you feel better about your opinions.

Meanwhile.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/03/17/iraq-invasion-ukraine-history-shadow/

“No one in the Biden administration today cares that [the Iraq War] ruined what credibility America had as a pillar of international order in the global south and gave Putin cover for his own atrocity,” wrote Juan Cole, a historian of the Middle East at the University of Michigan. “Who remembers anymore that, in 2003, we were Vladimir Putin?”""

 

or perhaps some of this might help.

https://consortiumnews.com/2023/03/20/iraq-20-years-chris-hedges-the-lords-of-chaos/

"The cheerleaders in the media for war — Thomas Friedman, David Remnick, Richard Cohen, George Packer, William Kristol, Peter Beinart, Bill Keller, Robert Kaplan, Anne Applebaum, Nicholas Kristof, Jonathan Chait, Fareed Zakaria, David Frum, Jeffrey Goldberg, David Brooks and Michael Ignatieff — were used to amplify the lies and discredit the handful of us, including Michael Moore, Robert Scheer and Phil Donahue, who opposed the war.

These courtiers were often motivated more by careerism than idealism. They did not lose their megaphones or lucrative speaking fees and book contracts once the lies were exposed, as if their crazed diatribes did not matter. They served the centers of power and were rewarded for it.

Many of these same pundits are pushing further escalation of the war in Ukraine, although most know as little about Ukraine or NATO’s provocative and unnecessary expansion to the borders of Russia as they did about Iraq."

The world is much more complicated than the good vs evil narrative.

 

What he's saying @villakram, is that the US has done some really bad things and should be condemned. Russia has done some bad things and should be condemned. It's not 'either/or'

The key part is that they are separate issues when deciding who to condemn. It's not that if you condemn Russia, you can't condemn the US, or that if you condemn the US, you can't condemn Russia. I want to see the war criminals from the illegal Iraq invasion held to account. I also want to see the war criminals from the illegal Ukraine invasion held to account.

It's not like you can only pick one Baddie, and therefore the other ones must be Goodies.

[Mandy Lifeboats]

17 minutes ago, villakram said:

I'm happy that projecting like that makes you feel better about your opinions.

Meanwhile.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/03/17/iraq-invasion-ukraine-history-shadow/

“No one in the Biden administration today cares that [the Iraq War] ruined what credibility America had as a pillar of international order in the global south and gave Putin cover for his own atrocity,” wrote Juan Cole, a historian of the Middle East at the University of Michigan. “Who remembers anymore that, in 2003, we were Vladimir Putin?”""

 

or perhaps some of this might help.

https://consortiumnews.com/2023/03/20/iraq-20-years-chris-hedges-the-lords-of-chaos/

"The cheerleaders in the media for war — Thomas Friedman, David Remnick, Richard Cohen, George Packer, William Kristol, Peter Beinart, Bill Keller, Robert Kaplan, Anne Applebaum, Nicholas Kristof, Jonathan Chait, Fareed Zakaria, David Frum, Jeffrey Goldberg, David Brooks and Michael Ignatieff — were used to amplify the lies and discredit the handful of us, including Michael Moore, Robert Scheer and Phil Donahue, who opposed the war.

These courtiers were often motivated more by careerism than idealism. They did not lose their megaphones or lucrative speaking fees and book contracts once the lies were exposed, as if their crazed diatribes did not matter. They served the centers of power and were rewarded for it.

Many of these same pundits are pushing further escalation of the war in Ukraine, although most know as little about Ukraine or NATO’s provocative and unnecessary expansion to the borders of Russia as they did about Iraq."

The world is much more complicated than the good vs evil narrative.

 

Ah ...... I see.  Its clear now.  What Russia is doing is acceptable because what the USA is doing is wrong.  

I use the same "logic".  What the USA are doing today is perfectly acceptable because of what Russia did in Crimea in 1853.  

 

[Mandy Lifeboats]

10 minutes ago, Anthony said:

What he's saying @villakram, is that the US has done some really bad things and should be condemned. Russia has done some bad things and should be condemned. It's not 'either/or'

The key part is that they are separate issues when deciding who to condemn. It's not that if you condemn Russia, you can't condemn the US, or that if you condemn the US, you can't condemn Russia. I want to see the war criminals from the illegal Iraq invasion held to account. I also want to see the war criminals from the illegal Ukraine invasion held to account.

It's not like you can only pick one Baddie, and therefore the other ones must be Goodies.

Very well put @Anthony

USA attacked the Serbian power grid and caused suffering for innocent civilians.  This was wrong.  

Russia attacked the Ukrainian power grid and caused suffering for innocent civilians.  This is wrong.  

USA invaded Iraq based upon fictitious WMD in Iraq being a threat to the USA.  This was wrong. 

Russia invaded Ukraine based upon fictitious Nazis in Ukraine being a threat to Russia.  This was wrong.  

 

[villakram]

31 minutes ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

Very well put @Anthony

USA attacked the Serbian power grid and caused suffering for innocent civilians.  This was wrong.  

Russia attacked the Ukrainian power grid and caused suffering for innocent civilians.  This is wrong.  

USA invaded Iraq based upon fictitious WMD in Iraq being a threat to the USA.  This was wrong. 

Russia invaded Ukraine based upon fictitious Nazis in Ukraine being a threat to Russia.  This was wrong.  

 

You are half projecting and half arguing with yourself. Paint anything I say as Russian, so it can be easily dismissed as they are an "other" and by implication different from us and evil. 

Going back to where all this started. The not an inch, and keep fighting until every inch is returned position, is a naive and comfortable thing to say when one lies very far away.  Hence the bizarre world we live in where the possibility for a cease fire during a horrible war is objectionable for those on the "good" side.

[Mandy Lifeboats]

8 minutes ago, villakram said:

You are half projecting and half arguing with yourself. Paint anything I say as Russian, so it can be easily dismissed as they are an "other" and by implication different from us and evil. 

Going back to where all this started. The not an inch, and keep fighting until every inch is returned position, is a naive and comfortable thing to say when one lies very far away.  Hence the bizarre world we live in where the possibility for a cease fire during a horrible war is objectionable for those on the "good" side.

I am not arguing with myself. My standpoint is perfectly consistent.  USA have committed atrocities in the past.  Russia is committing them today.  

A ceasefire is perfectly acceptable. Russia should start one immediately whilst they get out of Ukraine.  

A ceasefire NOW would cause more deaths.  It would allow Russia to regroup, rearm and recommence their attack at a later date.  Let's not forget Russia gave constant assurances that they were not going to attack Ukraine.  Why should Ukraine believe anything they say now?