bickster Posted June 25, 2022 Moderator Share Posted June 25, 2022 2 hours ago, Genie said: Something else to thank Boris for, being top of the list of places outside of Ukraine Russia would like to blow up. Cheers Boris! It’s a deranged MP talking for the sake of a domestic audience Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ender4 Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 2 hours ago, LondonLax said: It sounds like Russia have now taken Sievierodonetsk unfortunately and are moving in on Lysychansk next. How bad is this for Ukraine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 17 minutes ago, ender4 said: How bad is this for Ukraine? Well usually when this sort of thing happens we are informed that this is Ukraine being very clever tactically and exchanging land for Russian bodies as Russia is perilously close to running out of soldiers and that Ukraine are days away from the definitive counter strike with their newly trained army of 300,000 and all manner of state of the art weaponry. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 24 minutes ago, ender4 said: How bad is this for Ukraine? Well it closes out the last bit of the Luhansk region that Russia was looking to make an ‘independent’ country. They still have a lot to do if they are going to take the rest of the Donetsk region as well (the other region they claim they are trying to ‘liberate’). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy Lifeboats Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 59 minutes ago, ender4 said: How bad is this for Ukraine? Its not a huge loss from a strategic viewpoint. But its a blow to morale. There comes a point where there is no point in defending a shattered city. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted June 25, 2022 Moderator Share Posted June 25, 2022 35 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Well usually when this sort of thing happens we are informed that this is Ukraine being very clever tactically and exchanging land for Russian bodies as Russia is perilously close to running out of soldiers and that Ukraine are days away from the definitive counter strike with their newly trained army of 300,000 and all manner of state of the art weaponry. The opposite side to that is that some people told us Sievierodonetsk was about to fall four weeks ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arj Guy Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 22 minutes ago, bickster said: The opposite side to that is that some people told us Sievierodonetsk was about to fall four weeks ago And they were right, unlike the people who claimed Russia were pushed out of Severodonetsk because they believe every bit of propaganda which the Ukraine government puts out. The city had pretty much fallen weeks ago and remaining UA troops were hiding in an industrial zone. It's time to acknowledge that the great Ukrainian counter attack with a new army armed with NATO wonder weapons isn't happening. It's a fantasy. Let's hope Ukraine start negotiating whilst they still can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BleedClaretAndBlue Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 So Lukashenko has said Lithuania enforcing the sanctions on Kaliningrad freight is a declaration of war, meanwhile overnight the Russkies used Belarussian airspace to launch around 60 missiles into Ukraine striking all over the country from Lviv to Kharkiv. The sanctions have had little effect on Putin’s appetite to double down, as expected. Seems Belarus will soon start officially joining in this invasion reading between the lines. Was reading the other day also that Russian choppers were encroaching into Estonian airspace simulating attacks on the country (whatever that means) Bit worrying really tbh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ender4 Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 (edited) 37 minutes ago, BleedClaretAndBlue said: So Lukashenko has said Lithuania enforcing the sanctions on Kaliningrad freight is a declaration of war, meanwhile overnight the Russkies used Belarussian airspace to launch around 60 missiles into Ukraine striking all over the country from Lviv to Kharkiv. The sanctions have had little effect on Putin’s appetite to double down, as expected. Seems Belarus will soon start officially joining in this invasion reading between the lines. Was reading the other day also that Russian choppers were encroaching into Estonian airspace simulating attacks on the country (whatever that means) Bit worrying really tbh Putin knows that Europe (mainly Germany & France) don’t want to escalate, so he can keep pushing the limits little bit by bit without any worry of retaliation. Edited June 25, 2022 by ender4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted June 25, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted June 25, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Arj Guy said: And they were right, unlike the people who claimed Russia were pushed out of Severodonetsk because they believe every bit of propaganda which the Ukraine government puts out. The city had pretty much fallen weeks ago and remaining UA troops were hiding in an industrial zone. It's time to acknowledge that the great Ukrainian counter attack with a new army armed with NATO wonder weapons isn't happening. It's a fantasy. Let's hope Ukraine start negotiating whilst they still can. If I decided I was going to take over half your house and started waving a knife in your face everytime you tried to chuck me out. And the Police decided they weren't interested. Would you just shrug your shoulders and start to negotiate kitchen and toilet timetables with me? Because what you are proposing for The Ukrainian people is a lot lot more serious than that. Edited June 25, 2022 by sidcow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delboy54 Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 I agree, Putin will push and push bit by bit until something happens or someone says enoughs enough. And then it's a much bigger issue for all of us. If we appease Putin he will temporarily stop then regroup then start again when he is ready.... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted June 25, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted June 25, 2022 3 minutes ago, delboy54 said: I agree, Putin will push and push bit by bit until something happens or someone says enoughs enough. And then it's a much bigger issue for all of us. If we appease Putin he will temporarily stop then regroup then start again when he is ready.... This is exactly it. You can negotiate giving him X territory to stay away, but he'll be back again because he's then got tried and tested strategy. Before you know it the previously loyal segment of Ukraine adjacent to the new border will suddenly have rebel "Ukrainians" declaring they want independence from the Nazi regime and Russia will be rushing in to Liberate this new territory. Rinse and repeat, Rinse and repeat. That's what people arguing for settlement just don't get. You can't settle with Russia, it just encourages them and proves it works for them. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy Lifeboats Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 There needs to be a short term resolution and a long term resolution. Ukraine should agree a ceasefire without agreeing to losing land. But the economic war should continue until Russia hands back everything it seized from Ukraine from 2014 onwards. This war should only end when Russia is smaller in both land, military and wealth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa89 Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 9 minutes ago, Mandy Lifeboats said: This war should only end when Russia is smaller in both land, military and wealth. It will end with russia taking the eastern part of Ukraine permanently, or turning it into a russian protectorate, and the price they'll pay is exile from the international community for 5 or so years. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YLN Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 39 minutes ago, sidcow said: If I decided I was going to take over half your house.... These comparisons are not relevant 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy Lifeboats Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 10 minutes ago, villa89 said: It will end with russia taking the eastern part of Ukraine permanently, or turning it into a russian protectorate, and the price they'll pay is exile from the international community for 5 or so years. Possible. But........ On 26 December 1991 the USSR ceased to exist. It lost a 50 year economic war with the West. Occupied countries like Poland, Czechoslovakia and many others were finally free. They joined NATO and are some of Russian's most vocal opponents. I doubt I'll see Ukraine regain all the land they lost in my lifetime. But there are Poles who never thought they would see Poland become a western democracy in NATO and the EU. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted June 25, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted June 25, 2022 21 minutes ago, YLN said: These comparisons are not relevant Why? We're discussing the taking over of owned territory and probability of the owner seeing handing it over as a perfectly acceptable solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted June 25, 2022 Moderator Share Posted June 25, 2022 2 hours ago, BleedClaretAndBlue said: Seems Belarus will soon start officially joining in this invasion reading between the lines. My prediction. Won't happen. If he orders the army in, there’s a strong possibility of a coup. Lukashenko does not have a good grip on Belarus, either it’s military or it’s people. If he did have full control, they'd have joined in a long time ago. Ignoring all the rumours about Generals refusing, the evidence is that Putin has pulled in troops from literally every puppet state under his influence, Syrians, Kadryovites, you name it. Not one Belarusian soldier has been seen in Ukraine 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted June 25, 2022 Moderator Share Posted June 25, 2022 2 hours ago, Arj Guy said: And they were right, unlike the people who claimed Russia were pushed out of Severodonetsk because they believe every bit of propaganda which the Ukraine government puts out. The city had pretty much fallen weeks ago and remaining UA troops were hiding in an industrial zone. It's time to acknowledge that the great Ukrainian counter attack with a new army armed with NATO wonder weapons isn't happening. It's a fantasy. Let's hope Ukraine start negotiating whilst they still can. No, they weren't. It took 4 further weeks. About to fall means it’s imminent. It wasn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted June 26, 2022 Moderator Share Posted June 26, 2022 4 hours ago, Mandy Lifeboats said: Ukraine should agree a ceasefire without agreeing to losing land They haven’t been offered one. Not once has Russia seemed to act in good faith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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