Russia and its “Special Operation” in Ukraine

[Genie]

1 minute ago, Talldarkandransome said:

Sorry, I totally agree we should try for an agreed cease-fire, I just feel there is zero chance of Putin agreeing to it. 

I think the terms will be, hand over the country and I’ll stop bombing it to pieces.

[blandy]

5 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

I'd agree it's about Putin and his power and wealth, but I think there's a little bit of mischief and people using NATO and Ukraine as a stick with which to poke the bear.

Well in the same spirit, I’ll concede something on NATO. Well it is absolutely the case that there is no treaty or formal agreement between the West and Russia around NATO expansion to the east nevertheless in talks following the reunification of Germany I think I’m right in saying that assurances were given to Russia around NATO is all the West‘s intentions regarding the future of NATO but specific to Germany. Gorbachev was president of Russia at the time and he has pretty much confirmed this. When Putin took over he was initially much more favourable to the west and even towards NATO than he is now obviously. So it’s fair to say that Putin‘s attitude towards NATO has hardened  over the past 20 years and it’s no doubt the case that he has a very unfavourable view of NATO but as I said in terms of a justification or reason for the invasion of Ukraine that absolutely does not figure in my opinion.

[colhint]

Wouldn't a ceasefire just allow Putin to restock his supply lines?

[OutByEaster?]

Just now, blandy said:

Well in the same spirit, I’ll concede something on NATO. Well it is absolutely the case that there is no treaty or formal agreement between the West and Russia around NATO expansion to the east nevertheless in talks following the reunification of Germany I think I’m right in saying that assurances were given to Russia around NATO is all the West‘s intentions regarding the future of NATO but specific to Germany. Gorbachev was president of Russia at the time and he has pretty much confirmed this. When Putin took over he was initially much more favourable to the west and even towards NATO than he is now obviously. So it’s fair to say that Putin‘s attitude towards NATO has hardened  over the past 20 years and it’s no doubt the case that he has a very unfavourable view of NATO but as I said in terms of a justification or reason for the invasion of Ukraine that absolutely does not figure in my opinion.

It was reproduced in the notes from the meetings at the time, a formally undocumented promise that the West wouldn't look to advance NATO one inch beyond East Germany, it's has been pretty much ignored since that day on the stated basis that it was an agreement with Gorbachev and the USSR, not an agreement with Russia.

I think for Putin, the idea of looking weak, and for want of a better way of putting it, confirming the weakness of modern Russia publicly, is more damaging than the actual presence of NATO in his vicinity in itself, I think watching the creep of NATO over the years will have had an emasculating effect on him which is immensely dangerous when your whole power base relies on you being the big man in the room - I think Ukraine was a last straw for him and it's tipped him into very dumb decisions.

What I'd really like to see avoided is Ukraine, and the deaths of tens of thousands if people in Ukraine, to be used as a sort of proxy for a power battle in Moscow. I think the best outcome is that there's some sort of internal coup in Russia as soon as possible and as little loss of life as we can manage between now and it happening. I think the sanctions are doing more to help us meet that objective than the fighting at the moment.

 

 

[kidlewis]

Let’s be clear Putin and his generals have absolutely lost their minds and they are trying to cover up everything they can from their own people.

they’re talking about close to 4,000 dead Russians already. To put that into perspective the US lost 4,400 in the entire time they were in Iraq.

they’ve got mobile crematoriums to cover their tracks and a 40 mile convoy by any military stretch is mind bogglingly stupid.

theyre only solace is that they have more than likely taken out all of Ukraine airborne defence (drones, aircraft and helicopters).

Syria was Russias Iraq, helping Assad take down anyone who opposed him.

The longer it goes on, the sanctions will keep getting harder on Russia. They’ve lost nearly £200bn off their forecasted GDP and that’s inside a fortnight. Their economy is going to be in a very very bad way come the back end of 2022. 

[romavillan]

Talking of sanctions, there were a couple of people on here saying the UK was leading on sanctions, and saying the EU were slow in comparison. I've posted the sanctions tracker and an american article outlining how the EU changed it's entire policy to Russia in 72 hours. Now have a look at this, https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/03/eu-urges-uk-to-act-faster-before-russian-assets-are-spirited-away the UK's response is not at all good. The UK has been compromised by Russia, Lord Lebedev has Johnson in his pocket.

[bickster]

9 minutes ago, kidlewis said:

theyre only solace is that they have more than likely taken out all of Ukraine airborne defence (drones, aircraft and helicopters).

They took delivery of 50 TB2 drones this week, they only had 6 to start with. Ukrainian Pilots are still shooting down Russians almost daily. This just isn’t true. Russia does not have anything like air superiority and Ukraine are taking delivery of Migs from NATO members too. 
 

Russia does not yet rule the sky

[bickster]

24 minutes ago, colhint said:

Wouldn't a ceasefire just allow Putin to restock his supply lines?

The 40km long, out of fuel and food, trucks with more f***ked tyres than they can repair supply line?

It would take more than two days to fix that problem

[Mic09]

32 minutes ago, blandy said:

Well in the same spirit, I’ll concede something on NATO. Well it is absolutely the case that there is no treaty or formal agreement between the West and Russia around NATO expansion to the east nevertheless in talks following the reunification of Germany I think I’m right in saying that assurances were given to Russia around NATO is all the West‘s intentions regarding the future of NATO but specific to Germany. Gorbachev was president of Russia at the time and he has pretty much confirmed this. 

Of course it's a theory and some are dismissing it. I'd bet to think it could have been the case.

But, it wasn't written down, it wasn't formal, and it was made between leaders 30 years ago. Times change, geopolitics change, and people in power change. 

So while it could have been the case that assurances are made, this argument cannot be used in a reasonable discussion of what was or wasn't the deal - all parties signed trieties, and no treaty said that Poland/Estonia/Latvia/Ukraine wouldn't join NATO.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

I haven't been in here, so haven't read the thread, but I'm pretty sure I already have the gist, based on what I'm seeing on social media, and especially from the UK ( British people ).

Now, obviously, it goes without saying, that this is horrendous, and I deeply emphasise with the people of Ukraine.

A question though ( Apologies if already asked and presented )

If Mexico | Canada for example, decided to host a " peace keeping " Chinese | Russian military and weapons presence, along the entire stretch of the US border, would the Americans be cool with it? Would they allow this to happen? Ask Cuba about that. ( Not in anyway excusing what is happening )

Another thing winding me up, is the bandwagon where it seems now, we are simply supposed to hate ALL Russians, with impunity apparently, because hey, nothing shows humanity, like inhumanity towards other innocent humans and civilians, whether they have anything to do with the war or not.

I've also seen an incessant amount of propogonda, some seriously brazen straight up nonsense which has been debunked. Everything from the valiant story from " Snake Island " to " The ghost of Ukraine " though to the " Russian Tank runs over old man's car " to the using a photo of a Palestinian Boy in front of a tank and headlining it as " Brave Ukrainian boy is defiant in face of Russian Tank threat " to photos of Zelensky in Military fatigues apparently on " the battlefield " , which is actually a photo of him from 2 years ago on a tour of the Ukrainian military.

In my view, if people can't look deeper into the nucleus of this issue, the instigators and the master plan, then I don't know what to say.

When I was younger, I only read about propoganda in history books, now, I've seen it with my own eyes, in revolting action.

I'll tell you what, the real " Villains " and masterminds of this whole thing, aren't in the battlefield, I'd suggest they aren't Russian or Ukrainian either.

There is a shed load load of information missing from what people are seeing. However, the media count on people to be ignorant, and not read or research anything.

Publications like the Daily Mail have been treating the reporting of this whole thing like " War Porn ", it's quite sickening.

Edited March 3, 2022 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[avfc1982am]

11 minutes ago, romavillan said:

Talking of sanctions, there were a couple of people on here saying the UK was leading on sanctions, and saying the EU were slow in comparison. I've posted the sanctions tracker and an american article outlining how the EU changed it's entire policy to Russia in 72 hours. Now have a look at this, https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/03/eu-urges-uk-to-act-faster-before-russian-assets-are-spirited-away the UK's response is not at all good. The UK has been compromised by Russia, Lord Lebedev has Johnson in his pocket.

Your talking about Boris Yeltsin Jr, right? I think the tories are compromised, but especially Boris. That fluent Russian he spoke the other day. Mmm.... 

[Mic09]

20 minutes ago, kidlewis said:

Let’s be clear Putin and his generals have absolutely lost their minds and they are trying to cover up everything they can from their own people.

I think exactly the opposite - the fact they are doing a big cover up suggests they are being smart as to not turn the public against them. 

This is a political conflict as much as a military one, and Putin needs to keep appearances up within his nation. He very well knows what he's doing, even if he fails in his aims miserably.

(Which I hope he does, quickly.)

If his story is liberation of Ukraine from Nazi occupiers,  why would he expose his people to a different picture?

 

[Awol]

25 minutes ago, romavillan said:

…the UK's response is not at all good. The UK has been compromised by Russia, Lord Lebedev has Johnson in his pocket.

I genuinely don’t know the underlying realities on the financials and sanctions, instinctively it feels wrong and that we’re not going far enough, fast enough. I’m more than happy to believe that an underbelly of scum in the Tory party is not helping that. 

However, the UK is doing things it wouldn’t remotely consider if the country was compromised from a foreign policy perspective, taking risks that no other European country would dare to. It’s nowhere near as black and white as you seem to think and it’s not all about the Tories, Oligarchs and dodgy Russian money - as sickening as those things are. 

Edited March 3, 2022 by Awol

[Lichfield Dean]

Don't worry fellas, all will soon be resolved peacefully:

 

 

[avfc1982am]

3 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

If his story is liberation of Ukraine from Nazi occupiers,  why would he expose his people to a different picture?

He can't. He's chosen a narrative that will strike fear into the population. Or at least the sheep. I think the problem he has is maintaining this ruse because whether he likes it or not Russians are used to a different way of life now. Reverting to a time when life was grey wont sit well for long. 

[KentVillan]

I'm a bit fed up of "we're partly to blame" takes tbh.

In a pure, realpolitik context, yes of course we could have done different things strategically that would have led to different outcomes (although not always predictably so).

And yes of course the West has been guilty of all kinds of crimes.

But morally, the idea that *anyone* is to blame for what is happening now in Ukraine other than Vladimir Putin, who is one of the most evil men in human history, is just too-clever-by-half bullshit.

 

 

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

1 minute ago, Awol said:

I genuinely don’t know the underlying realities on the financials and sanctions, instinctively it feels wrong and that we’re not going far enough, fast enough. I’m more than happy to believe that l an underbelly of scum in the Tory party is not helping that. 

However, the UK is doing things it wouldn’t remotely consider if the country was compromised from a foreign policy perspective, taking risks that no other European country would dare to. It’s nowhere near as black and white as you seem to think and it’s not all about the Tories, Oligarchs and dodgy Russian money - as sickening as those things are. 

If it were up to most peoples logic I've seen, we'd ACTUALLY already have " World War 3 ". The way I see people talk about this, is as if it's a **** videogame.

" jUsT gO iN aNd nUKe rUsSiA "

I also think people are greatly mislead, if they genuinely don't think, Russia could have already flattened Ukraine if they really wanted to, and were just as reckless as depicted.

This could have all been prevented from happening in the first place. Garbage Leadership, bluff calling, disrrspect and disregard for another " Powers " views and concerns aren't the way to go, whether you like)agree with the Leadership or not.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

5 minutes ago, Lichfield Dean said:

Don't worry fellas, all will soon be resolved peacefully:

 

 

Population of Yemen wishes they had enough energy and food to react to this.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

10 minutes ago, avfc1982am said:

He can't. He's chosen a narrative that will strike fear into the population. Or at least the sheep. I think the problem he has is maintaining this ruse because whether he likes it or not Russians are used to a different way of life now. Reverting to a time when life was grey wont sit well for long. 

Mate, as I've said, I'm catching up on here, so don't want to regurgitate things or rub anyone the wrong way.

But a Neo Nazi problem/faction in Ukraine's military and some leadership is factual, not rumour.

Now as you say, whether Putin really believes thatnis one of the reasons he is doing this, is another thing altogether 

There is definitely a Nazi problem there though, and Pete from the Holy Trinity isn't involved. Lol

Edited March 3, 2022 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[foreveryoung]

4 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Mate, as I've said, I'm catching up on here, so don't want to regurgitate things or rub anyone the wrong way.

But a Neo Nazi problem/faction in Ukraine's military and some leadership is factual, not rumour.

Now as you say, whether Putin really believes thatnis one of the reasons he is doing this, is another thing altogether 

There is definitely a Nazi problem there though, and Pete from the Holy Trinity isn't involved. Lol

There is a Nazi problem there yes, but I doubt it's worth close to leveling the country and killing innocent civilians to drown them out. As for people saying "nuke Russia", I actually don't know of anyone saying that, as they know what the repercussions would be, an we all know it wouldn't be pretty.