AntrimBlack Posted July 16, 2017 Share Posted July 16, 2017 1 hour ago, briny_ear said: BTW thought I might just mention the thing that irritates me most about this "discussion": it's people who clearly despise Bruce to the core, who write lengthy posts explaining in depth exactly how crap he is and how we have no hope of promotion if he stays, and then say, "I really hope I'm proved wrong". No you don't, you really hope you're proved right. So why not just be open about it? Not going to mention any names but you know who you are. I dislike this post immensely. I like Bruce, but I cannot believe that he will be able to get us up based on what I saw last season (not pre season). And I will be very happy to be proved wrong. I want what is best for Aston Villa, not for my personal ego. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vreitti Posted July 16, 2017 Share Posted July 16, 2017 9 minutes ago, TRO said: I would like to think we will see nothing like that when the season kicks off. I don't know where you draw your optimism from, but I don't think I've ever wanted you to be more right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eastie Posted July 16, 2017 Share Posted July 16, 2017 Let's hope we see far better on Tuesday at Walsall - confidence is vital in football and we need to hit the ground running - if we are without kodija and adomah it lessens our attacking options so we need to see vast improvement from mccormack and hogan and some creativity too. The tempo is too slow to our game - much more on the front foot would be better - not heard any comments from Bruce after the game yesterday but I'd hope he would be far from happy . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted July 16, 2017 Share Posted July 16, 2017 (edited) Maybe, just maybe......watching pre-season friendlies, is not a helpful exercise to discerning fans. I know we are all anxious to see our team.....but perhaps the smart thing to do is to wait for the first league match. Edited July 16, 2017 by TRO 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted July 16, 2017 Share Posted July 16, 2017 6 minutes ago, vreitti said: I don't know where you draw your optimism from, but I don't think I've ever wanted you to be more right. Pre- season friendlies of yesteryear. I think we had a season when we lost every one, I think Mon was manager and we went on to a decent season.....if my memory serves me right. I have to say our lot did not look at all sharp.....it was all so laboured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vreitti Posted July 16, 2017 Share Posted July 16, 2017 29 minutes ago, TRO said: I hear the steve Bruce dissenters (and i have empathy with them)and to be fair no fan can unconditionally support him forever...but i seen things in that game that tell me its them as opposed to him. It's not the first time you mention this, and I'm just as baffled as the last time. I just don't see how after this long, you could possibly blame the players anymore? Sure some players might still be a little rusty, which at this point is excusable in some cases (Birkir, RMc) In general though, I'd believe they are in fact playing according to instructions. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post TrentVilla Posted July 16, 2017 Moderator Popular Post Share Posted July 16, 2017 43 minutes ago, TRO said: If i was a player, i would imagine the worst manager in the world would not get me to abandon my skills and more importantly the basics of the game. Its my dna, its my talent at stake. I hear the steve Bruce dissenters (and i have empathy with them)and to be fair no fan can unconditionally support him forever...but i seen things in that game that tell me its them as opposed to him. It could be a bit of both, but on that showing, some of them players worry me. If it's the players, why have Conor, Lansbury and Hogan been so much worse in our colours than they were the rest of last season? Why is Lansbury suddenly so deep when he naturally wants to be playing in the advance 10 role? Why is Hourihane so deep when previously he was about getting forward and getting goals and assists? That can't be attributed to the players, they've not changed their games since coming here that is down to set up's, tactics, training and instruction. 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginko Posted July 16, 2017 Share Posted July 16, 2017 (edited) 16 minutes ago, TRO said: Maybe, just maybe......watching pre-season friendlies, is not a helpful exercise to discerning fans. I know we are all anxious to see our team.....but perhaps the smart thing to do is to wait for the first league match. I think most of us realise it's a preseason friendly and you should take those performances with a pinch of salt. However, watching yesterday's game was like watching most of last season. We had some possession and passed it about the back nicely enough at times, but there's a severe lack of chances. I don't mean goals, though of course that's also true, I mean goal threats and attempts. With the players we have we should be carving teams open and always on the offensive. But we're not. We look clueless and that's down to tactics and training. Yes, it was a friendly and mainly for fitness, but it's just like he's trying the same things over and over again hoping they'll eventually click and they just aren't. There's no excuse for that kind of stubbornness. We can see it, why can't they? I don't think he'll last three months personally, and nor should he if that's all he can serve up, and I can't see it improving anytime soon. I just hope Tony and co. have plans in place, though obviously looking at other managers when you already have one isn't exactly inspiring for the current incumbent. Edited July 16, 2017 by Ginko 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted July 16, 2017 Share Posted July 16, 2017 3 minutes ago, vreitti said: It's not the first time you mention this, and I'm just as baffled as the last time. I just don't see how after this long, you could possibly blame the players anymore? Sure some players might still be a little rusty, which at this point is excusable in some cases (Birkir, RMc) In general though, I'd believe they are in fact playing according to instructions. i think we are talking about 2 different things. as just one example to save rambling. If you can't trap a bag of cement.....how on earth can that be the managers fault? please explain? He can bollock him after.....but he can't do it for him. some of the horror offerings was nothing to do with managerial set up.....rusty hopefully. I am not exonerating him unconditionally......i am merely pointing out sort comings that are exclusively the responsibility of the player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vreitti Posted July 16, 2017 Share Posted July 16, 2017 3 minutes ago, TRO said: If you can't trap a bag of cement.....how on earth can that be the managers fault? please explain? Sadly I can't. But most of the players are his players now. Why has he bought them, if they can't even get the basics right? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted July 16, 2017 Moderator Share Posted July 16, 2017 4 minutes ago, TRO said: i think we are talking about 2 different things. as just one example to save rambling. If you can't trap a bag of cement.....how on earth can that be the managers fault? please explain? He can bollock him after.....but he can't do it for him. some of the horror offerings was nothing to do with managerial set up.....rusty hopefully. I am not exonerating him unconditionally......i am merely pointing out sort comings that are exclusively the responsibility of the player. Individual errors on the pitch are obviously down to players not the coach or manager but every player makes those errors. While individual errors have been costly for us their impact has been exacerbated by the general low standard of our performances. Our inability to retain possession, create chances or score goals mean that a error that gives a goal away is extremely costly. But I think this is a bit of a non issue, the issue with the players in my view is the individual and collective under performance particularly of those players signed by Bruce on the back of far better form elsewhere. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper Posted July 16, 2017 Share Posted July 16, 2017 1 hour ago, briny_ear said: BTW thought I might just mention the thing that irritates me most about this "discussion": it's people who clearly despise Bruce to the core, who write lengthy posts explaining in depth exactly how crap he is and how we have no hope of promotion if he stays, and then say, "I really hope I'm proved wrong". No you don't, you really hope you're proved right. So why not just be open about it? Not going to mention any names but you know who you are. what you do not appear to understand is that EVERY Villa wants us promoted. Some think SB will achieve it some dont (not mentioning names) Both side can state their reasons for doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted July 16, 2017 Share Posted July 16, 2017 11 minutes ago, TRO said: i think we are talking about 2 different things. as just one example to save rambling. If you can't trap a bag of cement.....how on earth can that be the managers fault? please explain? He can bollock him after.....but he can't do it for him. some of the horror offerings was nothing to do with managerial set up.....rusty hopefully. I am not exonerating him unconditionally......i am merely pointing out sort comings that are exclusively the responsibility of the player. If he can't trap a bag of cement then I question why the manager signed him or continues to play him. If he used to be able to do it and now can't, then I question the system and style, is that helping get the best out of the player. If it's down to a lack of confidence well that's an important part of a managers job. To simply say there's nothing he can do and it's not his fault makes me question why we even need a high profile manager. Anyone with a bit of experience in the game could pick 11 players and then take no responsibility for the outcome. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted July 16, 2017 Moderator Share Posted July 16, 2017 3 minutes ago, DCJonah said: Anyone with a bit of experience in the game could pick 11 players and then take no responsibility for the outcome. Tim Sherwood is waving 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
striker Posted July 16, 2017 Visiting Supporter Share Posted July 16, 2017 (edited) 56 minutes ago, TRO said: I would like to think we will see nothing like that when the season kicks off. The point is though and why posters are reacting to yesterday's game is that it was a repeat of inept performances under Bruce last season. In fact in most respects identical and with a 1st half team that will be very close to the starting line up against Hull. Considering that some said performances would improve once Bruce had a pre-season under his belt, yesterday's performance was worrying although admittedly pre-season isn't over yet. Edited July 16, 2017 by striker 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheStagMan Posted July 16, 2017 Share Posted July 16, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, briny_ear said: So, on that formula, last season the following clubs should have sacked their managers after 7 games: Brighton (11 points) Reading (11) Sheffield W (11) Fulham (12) Whereas Barnsley (15) and Norwich (14) were right to keep their managers safe in the knowledge that they had already earned automatic promotion. As I have said before, talking about sacking Bruce based on his performance after only 7 games is totally crazy. As is the idea that there would be a bank of great managers ready and waiting in mid September to step in to the vacant post. It wont be 7 games though will it? It will be 30+ last season plus 7 this season to assess whether after 2 transfer windows he has managed to make the most expensively assembled championship squad in history look like a team. So far he has not done that. What is our preferred formation? Who are our preferred players? What is our starting 11? What is our plan? What is our team identity? Where are the partnerships on the pitch? Which players are on the same wavelength? None of these questions have been answered other than "hoof it to Kodjia and hope he does something", or recently "hoof it to Kodjia and .... ah shit he's not playing." Edited July 16, 2017 by TheStagMan 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted July 16, 2017 Share Posted July 16, 2017 4 minutes ago, TrentVilla said: If it's the players, why have Conor, Lansbury and Hogan been so much worse in our colours than they were the rest of last season? Why is Lansbury suddenly so deep when he naturally wants to be playing in the advance 10 role? Why is Hourihane so deep when previously he was about getting forward and getting goals and assists? That can't be attributed to the players, they've not changed their games since coming here that is down to set up's, tactics, training and instruction. Firstly, i wish i knew the answer, but lets have a go......because they had players around them that was doing the graft for them, because they were in a settled team, because they never had the pressure of expectation.....many reasons. secondly, because we had no natural ball winner to do that job, they have a go but are not adequate enough to do it, so they just end up retreating......we was losing one on ones all over the midfle of the park.....the manager can't tackle for them.I agree they should be further forward but we do not have the midfield man to allow them to. It would folly to say that nothing is the managers responsibility.....but he has to have the square pegs in the square holes and the round pegs in the round holes, i am still unsure at this early stage that he has personnel( despite the numbers of players in the squad )to do that. I thought our players against shrewsbury were laboured, physically and mentally, they looked anything but sharp, butbwe still have 3 weeks to and i am not qualified to question fitness stages and how much difference 3 weeks makes. Players looked laboured running off the ball, that caused the man on the ball to be caught in possession a knock on effect to being a mess, its like a pack of dominoes, then everything starts to fail. We still have influential players to start who are injured, so i am dubious to what exactly we are supposed to glean from that game. on the surface, that game was a precursor to depression, but i think we need to keep our heads, its not a get out jail for SB, but he will know that was not a spectacle to beheld for a discerning fan......if questioned he may say " it wasn't meant to be its just a fitness excercise and they were warned against injury".... just guessing there. I think there is a time to be totally depressed with it all and read in to it what we all know about the game......I am sceptical now is the right time. Ps We have still got players to come in too,that will/ should enhance the balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted July 16, 2017 Moderator Share Posted July 16, 2017 2 minutes ago, TRO said: Firstly, i wish i knew the answer, but lets have a go......because they had players around them that was doing the graft for them, because they were in a settled team, because they never had the pressure of expectation.....many reasons. secondly, because we had no natural ball winner to do that job, they have a go but are not adequate enough to do it, so they just end up retreating......we was losing one on ones all over the midfle of the park.....the manager can't tackle for them.I agree they should be further forward but we do not have the midfield man to allow them to. It would folly to say that nothing is the managers responsibility.....but he has to have the square pegs in the square holes and the round pegs in the round holes, i am still unsure at this early stage that he has personnel( despite the numbers of players in the squad )to do that. I thought our players against shrewsbury were laboured, physically and mentally, they looked anything but sharp, butbwe still have 3 weeks to and i am not qualified to question fitness stages and how much difference 3 weeks makes. Players looked laboured running off the ball, that caused the man on the ball to be caught in possession a knock on effect to being a mess, its like a pack of dominoes, then everything starts to fail. We still have influential players to start who are injured, so i am dubious to what exactly we are supposed to glean from that game. on the surface, that game was a precursor to depression, but i think we need to keep our heads, its not a get out jail for SB, but he will know that was not a spectacle to beheld for a discerning fan......if questioned he may say " it wasn't meant to be its just a fitness excercise and they were warned against injury".... just guessing there. I think there is a time to be totally depressed with it all and read in to it what we all know about the game......I am sceptical now is the right time. Ps We have still got players to come in too,that will/ should enhance the balance. I wasn't talking about yesterday, Inwas talking about the entire second half of last season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted July 16, 2017 Share Posted July 16, 2017 19 minutes ago, TrentVilla said: Individual errors on the pitch are obviously down to players not the coach or manager but every player makes those errors. While individual errors have been costly for us their impact has been exacerbated by the general low standard of our performances. Our inability to retain possession, create chances or score goals mean that a error that gives a goal away is extremely costly. But I think this is a bit of a non issue, the issue with the players in my view is the individual and collective under performance particularly of those players signed by Bruce on the back of far better form elsewhere. I am not referring to individual errors i was looking at consistently poor pitch craft. It may well be middle of preseason and lack of fitness. but i am not qualified to challenge that. personally, to help me......I am refraining from watching pre- season friendlies. I am a football supporter that watches live Competitive games, thats where my skill base lies......I think i am out of my depth watching these games as they are possibly misleading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveAV1 Posted July 16, 2017 Share Posted July 16, 2017 53 minutes ago, vreitti said: I don't know where you draw your optimism from, but I don't think I've ever wanted you to be more right. It comes from Columbia and looks like talcum powder 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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