briny_ear Posted June 18, 2017 Share Posted June 18, 2017 On 17/06/2017 at 08:12, dn1982 said: If we weren't getting promoted I'd rather have had less wins but the football improving. We won't get promoted playing like we did last year. How would you know the football was "improving" if we were winning fewer games? I can absolutely guarantee you we wouldn't get promoted if we won fewer games. To get promoted we need more of the form we saw from mid-October to December and late Feb to early April, and cut out the disastrous spells from August to mid-October and Jan-Feb. It's really not much more complex than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted June 18, 2017 Share Posted June 18, 2017 6 minutes ago, briny_ear said: How would you know the football was "improving" if we were winning fewer games? I can absolutely guarantee you we wouldn't get promoted if we won fewer games. To get promoted we need more of the form we saw from mid-October to December and late Feb to early April, and cut out the disastrous spells from August to mid-October and Jan-Feb. It's really not much more complex than that. The problem is those good spells never looked like they could be consistent and it turned out they couldn't. We relied far too much on an individual doing something special, struggling to create chances, keep the ball but defended well. It was never the kind of football that will result in promotion over 46 games. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dn1982 Posted June 18, 2017 Share Posted June 18, 2017 3 hours ago, briny_ear said: How would you know the football was "improving" if we were winning fewer games? I can absolutely guarantee you we wouldn't get promoted if we won fewer games. To get promoted we need more of the form we saw from mid-October to December and late Feb to early April, and cut out the disastrous spells from August to mid-October and Jan-Feb. It's really not much more complex than that. Did you watch any of our games? Our style of play has got worse and if you rely on winning games by the odd goal you will run out of luck. That's what happened in January. Our one outlet was missing and we had nothing else. If we played a better style with a clear idea we'd be better equipped to handle players missing but if your only way is sit deep and hope Kodija scores every week and win one nil you will come unstuck. if we can't take the games to teams we will struggle that's why id have preferred Bruce to lose a few more at the end of last in meaningless trying to get us playing better so it benefitted us this year. Ultimately I will take 30 1 nil boring games next season as long as we go up. If Bruce wants to stay here long term he will need to do more than that though. He will need a bit of swagger in our play and he needs to realise this is his best chance to be a top manager. He won't ever manage a bigger club if he's fails. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave J Posted June 18, 2017 Share Posted June 18, 2017 18 hours ago, DCJonah said: What are the foundations he's installed? We aren't harder to beat, our goals conceded numbers aren't much different, our performances aren't great and we don't keep the ball well. What are the foundations Bruce has installed that RDM had completely messed up which will pay off next year? Here here ! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briny_ear Posted June 18, 2017 Share Posted June 18, 2017 8 hours ago, dn1982 said: Did you watch any of our games? Our style of play has got worse and if you rely on winning games by the odd goal you will run out of luck. That's what happened in January. Our one outlet was missing and we had nothing else. If we played a better style with a clear idea we'd be better equipped to handle players missing but if your only way is sit deep and hope Kodija scores every week and win one nil you will come unstuck. if we can't take the games to teams we will struggle that's why id have preferred Bruce to lose a few more at the end of last in meaningless trying to get us playing better so it benefitted us this year. Ultimately I will take 30 1 nil boring games next season as long as we go up. If Bruce wants to stay here long term he will need to do more than that though. He will need a bit of swagger in our play and he needs to realise this is his best chance to be a top manager. He won't ever manage a bigger club if he's fails. You still haven't explained how improving our football could be compatible with losing more games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straggler Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 (edited) On 17/06/2017 at 00:20, weedman said: The better analogy would be hiring a builder who has a track record of building the exact style of house that you want, but when he arrives to start the work the guy you hired before him because of a great advert you'd seen messed everything up, hadn't even got the foundations dug, had all the wrong tools, and your guy has to start from scratch, undoing all the crap that he inherited. You show up to check on it a few months later and it looks like a building site still. This doesn't mean he isn't capable of doing the thing he's been successfully doing for decades, it just means it's a work in progress. Our foundations are there, it's the finishing touches that we need now, final pieces that turn a building site into a house I think an even better analogy would be: Building a team is a lot like making love to a beautiful woman. First you have to get a good team together and make sure you are all pulling in the same direction. Then you have to pick a style of play, you don't want to play around at the back too much, but it's equally important not to spray it around all the time either. Then once you are stroking it around elegantly you should be able to finish with popping corks and a communal bath. Edited June 19, 2017 by Straggler spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 22 minutes ago, Straggler said: I think an even better analogy would be: Building a team is a lot like making love to a beautiful woman. First you have to get a good team together and make sure you are all pulling in the same direction. Then you have to pick a style of play, you don't want to play around at the back too much, but it's equally important not to spray it around all the time either. Then once you are stroking it around elegantly you should be able to finish with popping corks and a communal bath. No no no, it's like buying a car [Analogy follows here]... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mykeyb Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 How about the analogy that we appointed a manager that was thought at the time would not succeed so we got rid and appointed another manager who most thought couldnt do any worse, which he didnt but then in reality he was backed massively and there is precious little improvement on the back of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 Why doesn't one of the Steve Bruce doubters, write to him with all the reasons they have why Steve Bruce is the wrong manager for us.......and wait for his response. When that task is completed......share it with us on VT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 On 6/17/2017 at 20:04, DCJonah said: What are the foundations he's installed? We aren't harder to beat, our goals conceded numbers aren't much different, our performances aren't great and we don't keep the ball well. What are the foundations Bruce has installed that RDM had completely messed up which will pay off next year? Would it be reasonable for the Huddersfield fans to be asking the same question during their 2015/2016 season? Would it be reasonable for Norwich fans to be asking the question of why can Chris Hughton do what he did with Brighton and not with us? We have to wait and see what this season brings.....we might be pleasantly surprised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dn1982 Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 18 hours ago, briny_ear said: You still haven't explained how improving our football could be compatible with losing more games. If you can't understand that we could have practiced a new style even if it cost us results whilst learning it I'll give up now. Our negative style of play will not get us promoted plain and simple. You need to score goals. We don't and won't by sitting back. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mykeyb Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 25 minutes ago, TRO said: Why doesn't one of the Steve Bruce doubters, write to him with all the reasons they have why Steve Bruce is the wrong manager for us.......and wait for his response. When that task is completed......share it with us on VT You seem to suggest writing to Bruce a lot...do you know something? Does he want a penpal? Do you genuinely think that a. he will respond and b. his response would be mind changing? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 4 minutes ago, mykeyb said: You seem to suggest writing to Bruce a lot...do you know something? Does he want a penpal? Do you genuinely think that a. he will respond and b. his response would be mind changing? I wasn't aware of that, perhaps you read my posts more than i can remember writing them,or maybe I didn't get a satisfactory response to a simple question.........,No I don't know something, but he may explain his plan/actions. I would suspect a penpal is the last thing on his wish list Well it seems to me the debate has no conclusion.....Its just " I don't want Steve Bruce as manager of Aston Villa" I guess thats where we differ, you think he wants a penpal and I don't. Whether he responds or not you might learn something......even if it means you like him less. just look forward to next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briny_ear Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 1 hour ago, dn1982 said: If you can't understand that we could have practiced a new style even if it cost us results whilst learning it I'll give up now. Our negative style of play will not get us promoted plain and simple. You need to score goals. We don't and won't by sitting back. These are seasoned professionals, many of whom have been brought in because they have been highly effective in successful teams. They're not part of a remedial class who need to be taught basic skills. They idea that they need to learn a different playing style that would involve them losing matches while they learnt how to play is a bit daft isn't it? In any event, learning a new style that results in lots of defeats is hardly going to be motivating and inspiring is it? You haven't explained how, once they've learnt this new style that leads to more defeats, they then convert that into a style that means they win lots of matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave J Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 5 hours ago, mykeyb said: How about the analogy that we appointed a manager that was thought at the time would not succeed so we got rid and appointed another manager who most thought couldnt do any worse, which he didnt but then in reality he was backed massively and there is precious little improvement on the back of it. Yep! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 2 hours ago, TRO said: Would it be reasonable for the Huddersfield fans to be asking the same question during their 2015/2016 season? Would it be reasonable for Norwich fans to be asking the question of why can Chris Hughton do what he did with Brighton and not with us? We have to wait and see what this season brings.....we might be pleasantly surprised. But people are telling me that these foundations have been put in place. People have continued the myth that we had to have shit football to be harder to beat 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dn1982 Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 1 hour ago, briny_ear said: These are seasoned professionals, many of whom have been brought in because they have been highly effective in successful teams. They're not part of a remedial class who need to be taught basic skills. They idea that they need to learn a different playing style that would involve them losing matches while they learnt how to play is a bit daft isn't it? In any event, learning a new style that results in lots of defeats is hardly going to be motivating and inspiring is it? You haven't explained how, once they've learnt this new style that leads to more defeats, they then convert that into a style that means they win lots of matches. Haven't I? I've explained it clearly yet you just ignore it. I've never said lots of defeats. I said I could handle losing meaningless games trying to get us in a better position to win more this season. It's a virtually new squad that could've been let off the leash at the end of last seasonal tried to attack more without the worry of the result. Seeing as youre so happy with our results apart from the collapse you must be very confident this boring negative style will get us up? Will we see 75+ goals playing it? As that's what we'll need as a minimum to go up. If these highly effective players are so good why we collapse? Why is the football so bad? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaCas Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 On 19/06/2017 at 16:17, TRO said: We have to wait and see what this season brings.....we might be pleasantly surprised. Sadly I think that we won't be (....other things are taking precedence over VT at the moment but just thought I'd comment to brighten your day.....also definitely an analogy rather than a (conditional) syllogism ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyavfc Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 I wasn't happy with him last season, and when he has got teams wins in the past he has always struck me as someone who manages to win without playing well. I am obviously prepared to give him him a chance of a full pre season behind him, but if he goes for Elmohamady I'll be pissed off. Such an unnecessary signing, and one I feel like he's signing him because he's a mate. I feel like Alex Bruce will be next 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 Writing to Bruce? I'd lose respect for him if he gave the time of day to something like that. In all honesty, what he says means nothing, it's all about what we see on the pitch and regardless of whether you like him or not, he will be here at the start of the season. The only thing that makes sense here is to wait and see how we play. The standard 'fair crack of the whip' for a manager includes having an entire pre-season to plan, so give him that and then make a judgement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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