JAMAICAN-VILLAN Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 40 minutes ago, Dave J said: JV - are you sure about this? More expectation- bigger budget more pressure - better managers ? We're still ASTON VILLA you know It's not a debate about the "bigger club". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keener window-cleaner Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 5 hours ago, mykeyb said: As has been said there werent too many decenters when Lambert, Sherwood, Garde & RDM were axed as to be honest they werent doing a very good job, I would suggest that those who think that Bruce should be given more time has more to do with the fact that he has this now mythical 4 promotions next to his name and involves pretty much disregarding the evidence we have seen over the last 35 games that Bruce has not implemented the basics in his time so far. When you consider that Rednapp had how many training sessions when he took over at them lot down the road and managed to instill a pattern andstructure to their play when the played us just highlights to me the fatc that Bruce is not the man. He will be given more time, he will continue to serve up the same rubbish we saw last season winning a few and losing a few and will eventually be sacked and we will have wasted the parachute dosh and then will struggle massively. I agree with almost everything, but I think that Bruce in fact has implemented the basics and has a clear style of play: highest priority on defence, no risk taking, chosing grit over creativity - knock it long and hope to nick a goal on a corner or individual mistake in the second half. Then continue to defend. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave J Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 22 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said: It's not a debate about the "bigger club". JV- that makes little sense to me, I never mentioned us being a bigger club than Saints - although now I mention it errmm ! - I simply fail to see how you might feel that there is a greater level of expectation and increased levels of pressure at Southampton than which surrounds us - I'm a little surprised at this JV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weedman Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 People seem to forget that players are people, new managers mean new coaching, different schedules, different tactics etc etc, meaning the current players here and new ones coming have ALL got to adapt and change their entire routines around it. Its not an easy thing to do seamlessly, especially when, at the start of the season our long standing pro to help the newbies adapt and settle in was Gabby. Things are changing now, the players signed in summer are settled for the most part, the Jan signings are mostly there too, they like the manager and like his methods (and are used to them) Where Southampton have been effective is they sign players used to playing and training a certain way, and only employ managers that also train and set up their team the same way. And they have done this for years and years before even making it to the PL. We went from MON (defensive with rapid counter attacking play) to GH (dominating possession slow build up) to AMcL (defend at all costs) to PL (bit of a mixture of everything, would have been far more successful with some more backing IMO) to TS (overly attacking all guns blazing) to RG (not really sure, a bit like Houllier maybe?) to RDM (slow build up, lack of organisation - may have had more success with more time, we'll never know) to SB (defensive, organised, lack of clear attacking plan). On top of that we have signed virtually an entire new team in each of the last 2 seasons, all new players coming into the disorganised shitshow that we have been making it harder than ever to "hit the ground running" This is why some of us want some stability, the fact that SB has 4 promotions is important, because we need to put some faith in a manager to actually improve us in the medium term, and we didn't really have faith that RDM was that man, his single promotion was a long time ago, and being an isolated even could easily have been simply a one off season (see : Leicester winning the league) or the league could have changed and improved dramatically since that time. With Bruce we don't have that problem. It's easy to put a bit of faith in him because he has earned it. We are still transitioning into a semi cohesive unit, and there will definitely be low points still to come, having a manager that you know can achieve what we want is a massive plus, and not worth upsetting everything again to change it and hope for the best, especially as from what I've seen those wanting him sacked now don't want a similar manager, they want the polar opposite (again) and instant results (promotion this season), 2 things that don't usually go well together especially with a fragile team that is only just starting to settle from all the recent changes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, villakram said: Success in football for all it's issues is very easy to measure. W/L/D and the league table. Time being correlated with success as measured by this metric is the exception not the rule. but surely any form of structure or method that is introduced,has to have time to mature.....very few things are instant. and with the demise we have suffered it may take that bit longer. W/L/D and the league table is the result of so many factors that have to be worked on. Edited June 16, 2017 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 3 minutes ago, TRO said: but surely any form of structure or method that is introduced,has to have time to mature.....very few things are instant. and with the demise we have suffered it may take that bit longer. W/L/D and the league table is the result of so many factors that have to be worked on. Fair enough, but is the manager the structure? Or simply a part that fits into this structure and then is expected to perform, measured by having the team deliver results on the pitch? The Fergie/Wenger/Moyes of this world are anomalies. I view the structure/philosophy as something happening above the managers pay grade. If he wants to influence that, he has to earn it. An interesting season awaits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villan_007 Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 14 hours ago, mykeyb said: As has been said there werent too many decenters when Lambert, Sherwood, Garde & RDM were axed as to be honest they werent doing a very good job, I would suggest that those who think that Bruce should be given more time has more to do with the fact that he has this now mythical 4 promotions next to his name and involves pretty much disregarding the evidence we have seen over the last 35 games that Bruce has not implemented the basics in his time so far. When you consider that Rednapp had how many training sessions when he took over at them lot down the road and managed to instill a pattern andstructure to their play when the played us just highlights to me the fatc that Bruce is not the man. He will be given more time, he will continue to serve up the same rubbish we saw last season winning a few and losing a few and will eventually be sacked and we will have wasted the parachute dosh and then will struggle massively. Again I find this a real head scratcher. How is his four promotions not evidence of his ability to get us out of this league. We're in the championship. He's been promoted from it 4 times. That's a fact. It's a positive. Harry's pattern resulted in losing to us. Surely his pattern should have beaten us, especially given that Bruce serves up rubbish? I still don't see a single good reason to change anything at the moment. I hope we stick to our guns and let him have a proper crack at it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted June 16, 2017 Author Share Posted June 16, 2017 16 hours ago, mykeyb said: As has been said there werent too many decenters when Lambert, Sherwood, Garde & RDM were axed as to be honest they werent doing a very good job, I would suggest that those who think that Bruce should be given more time has more to do with the fact that he has this now mythical 4 promotions next to his name and involves pretty much disregarding the evidence we have seen over the last 35 games that Bruce has not implemented the basics in his time so far. When you consider that Rednapp had how many training sessions when he took over at them lot down the road and managed to instill a pattern andstructure to their play when the played us just highlights to me the fatc that Bruce is not the man. He will be given more time, he will continue to serve up the same rubbish we saw last season winning a few and losing a few and will eventually be sacked and we will have wasted the parachute dosh and then will struggle massively. One thing with this...Redknapp played 3 games lost one and won 2, Bruce came in he won four and drew 3 (one being away to Brighton) before suffering a defeat to a high flying Leeds away in his first seven games. Therefore I dont understand how this is a basis Bruce isnt the man? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 I love a good post with reasoning. especially long ones. and I can understand all what you say regarding many points but (please go to bold) 9 hours ago, weedman said: People seem to forget that players are people, new managers mean new coaching, different schedules, different tactics etc etc, meaning the current players here and new ones coming have ALL got to adapt and change their entire routines around it. Its not an easy thing to do seamlessly, especially when, at the start of the season our long standing pro to help the newbies adapt and settle in was Gabby. Things are changing now, the players signed in summer are settled for the most part, the Jan signings are mostly there too, they like the manager and like his methods (and are used to them) Where Southampton have been effective is they sign players used to playing and training a certain way, and only employ managers that also train and set up their team the same way. And they have done this for years and years before even making it to the PL. We went from MON (defensive with rapid counter attacking play) to GH (dominating possession slow build up) to AMcL (defend at all costs) to PL (bit of a mixture of everything, would have been far more successful with some more backing IMO) to TS (overly attacking all guns blazing) to RG (not really sure, a bit like Houllier maybe?) to RDM (slow build up, lack of organisation - may have had more success with more time, we'll never know) to SB (defensive, organised, lack of clear attacking plan). As you are stating points about why it hasnt all clicked yet. you have in fact stated (in bold) the exact reason why it hasnt clicked yet. How can a "lack of clear attacking plan" click when there isnt one? Its very frustrating for me as a Brucer-out-er to form my own opinion of what is wrong knowing that other VTers see the same flaw. Its incomprehendable for me when a VTer sees the very same flaw but is prepared to hand out excuses for Bruce for " more time, patience, hard task, preseason........etc" when those excuses are not the solution to the fundamental flaw. The flaw lies at the managers feet, his coaches and those above him look on either unaware or not prepared to take the consequenses Quote On top of that we have signed virtually an entire new team in each of the last 2 seasons, all new players coming into the disorganised shitshow that we have been making it harder than ever to "hit the ground running" This is why some of us want some stability, the fact that SB has 4 promotions is important, because we need to put some faith in a manager to actually improve us in the medium term, and we didn't really have faith that RDM was that man, his single promotion was a long time ago, and being an isolated even could easily have been simply a one off season (see : Leicester winning the league) or the league could have changed and improved dramatically since that time. With Bruce we don't have that problem. It's easy to put a bit of faith in him because he has earned it. We are still transitioning into a semi cohesive unit, and there will definitely be low points still to come, having a manager that you know can achieve what we want is a massive plus, and not worth upsetting everything again to change it and hope for the best, especially as from what I've seen those wanting him sacked now don't want a similar manager, they want the polar opposite (again) and instant results (promotion this season), 2 things that don't usually go well together especially with a fragile team that is only just starting to settle from all the recent changes There is no faith in someone who has the wrong key to the door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 1 hour ago, Demitri_C said: One thing with this...Redknapp played 3 games lost one and won 2, Bruce came in he won four and drew 3 (one being away to Brighton) before suffering a defeat to a high flying Leeds away in his first seven games. Therefore I dont understand how this is a basis Bruce isnt the man? I think the arguement is that The Twitcher was successfull in achiving his set target. Bruce was not. Bringing up a few token results is a moot point as Bruce had over 30 games to get us into the playoffs. He failed He stated a top 10 place as a target He failed he can have 100 promotions at every single club in the league bar us. But when he had the chance with us He failed He could have even had a previous record with us with multiple promotions. But when it came down to it this season He failed 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted June 16, 2017 Author Share Posted June 16, 2017 3 minutes ago, Grasshopper said: I think the arguement is that The Twitcher was successfull in achiving his set target. Bruce was not. Bringing up a few token results is a moot point as Bruce had over 30 games to get us into the playoffs. He failed He stated a top 10 place as a target He failed he can have 100 promotions at every single club in the league bar us. But when he had the chance with us He failed He could have even had a previous record with us with multiple promotions. But when it came down to it this season He failed So bruce could not have achieved that target as candleface ? The point is that is a very short term target. Top 10 we missed it but when he came we were fearing a double relegation. So i will say to you Did he get the teams winning consistently? Passed Did he manage to get away wins? Passed Did he win back to back games? Passed Did he manage to consistently keep clean sheets? Passed (johnstone kept more clean sheets than any ither keeper in this league) Did he improve the squad in January? I would say passed again. He failed in your own objectives which i think are a little unrealistic as we started so badly, but in many peoples eyes people can see progress has been made from garde-rdm period. That said i would agree that mext season anything like this year would be a complete failure and then questions woukd need to bw asked if he would have to be replaced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 3 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: So bruce could not have achieved that target as candleface ? The point is that is a very short term target. Top 10 we missed it but when he came we were fearing a double relegation. So i will say to you Did he get the teams winning consistently? Passed Did he manage to get away wins? Passed Did he win back to back games? Passed Did he manage to consistently keep clean sheets? Passed (johnstone kept more clean sheets than any ither keeper in this league) Did he improve the squad in January? I would say passed again. He failed in your own objectives which i think are a little unrealistic as we started so badly, but in many peoples eyes people can see progress has been made from garde-rdm period. That said i would agree that mext season anything like this year would be a complete failure and then questions woukd need to bw asked if he would have to be replaced. I'm pretty sure that I could improve at Brain Surgery given time. Whether it would be enough to complete a task I'm not so sure. However if the target was immediate success I think "improvement" that consequentially fell short would not be a basis for my continued employment. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mykeyb Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 3 hours ago, Demitri_C said: One thing with this...Redknapp played 3 games lost one and won 2, Bruce came in he won four and drew 3 (one being away to Brighton) before suffering a defeat to a high flying Leeds away in his first seven games. Therefore I dont understand how this is a basis Bruce isnt the man? Rednapp took over a team that was destined for League 1, whilst they didnt look like scoring when they played us they certainly played the better of the two teams because of the work done in the limited time there, Bruce has made us harder to beat although his record is just as bad as RDM, there is no decernible pattern to our play, we have won games because of a bit of magic from Kodja, Adomah or Grealish and not because we dominated play. I would love bruce to be the man but I dont see it I really dont. I dont see any kind of improvement in style or organisation. It always looks like 11 blokes put on the pitch with no idea who is doing what. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 2 hours ago, Grasshopper said: I think the arguement is that The Twitcher was successfull in achiving his set target. Bruce was not. Bringing up a few token results is a moot point as Bruce had over 30 games to get us into the playoffs. He failed He stated a top 10 place as a target He failed he can have 100 promotions at every single club in the league bar us. But when he had the chance with us He failed He could have even had a previous record with us with multiple promotions. But when it came down to it this season He failed What you say on the face of it is largely right.....however i do think there was an improvement in removing the soft underbelly, some may value some may not. I still think he will get this right, you don't ,fair dinkums. but tell me GH ......who is this person/manager that will do all the things you want to see?......and at the speed you want to see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 (edited) I appraise managers just like the next fan and we all have our opinions for various reasons......and whilst I think that the manager is the single most important person in relation to the success of the football club.....I still maintain a manager is only as good as his players. Managers have the ultimate responsibility of recruiting players, developing them when they are with us and setting the team up to win football matches......accept all of that. Managers can say all the right things, but getting them to do it , is another argument......simply saying it is sometimes not enough, it requires work and practice. However a major part of all that is identifying and recruiting the right ones.....easier said than done, but essential to everyones success. In my personal opinion, we, Aston Villa have been particularly lacking over the last decade in this crucial area.I have no idea if its better now, but assuming we are on the right lines it will take a new scouting network some time to come up with the necessary results to help any manager. I believe Ron Saunders had a big leg up the wall from the legacy of youth system left by Vic Crowe.....our recent managers over the last 4 years have not had much of that at all. When fans ridicule the reference to time.....I understand where they are coming from, because in isolation "Time" is just an abstract, it has to relate to other things.....but equally it cannot just be dismissed as such......good habits, good practice, take time to implement and turn bad habits and bad practice around. IF,assuming we have now got the right building blocks in place to form a reputable scouting network and their hard work and results can support the manager, we have a chance.....but sorry for this.....that too takes time to see results, even if we have it right now. ps Interesting to read Viktor Lindlelof going to Man U for 30 odd mill......one of our earlier targets,during Sherwoods reign,that would have required a modest fee....... but we signed Lescott instead. Edited June 16, 2017 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mykeyb Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 6 hours ago, villan_007 said: Again I find this a real head scratcher. How is his four promotions not evidence of his ability to get us out of this league. We're in the championship. He's been promoted from it 4 times. That's a fact. It's a positive. Harry's pattern resulted in losing to us. Surely his pattern should have beaten us, especially given that Bruce serves up rubbish? I still don't see a single good reason to change anything at the moment. I hope we stick to our guns and let him have a proper crack at it. It all depends on how you rank the information to hand. 4 promotions on paper does look promising, style of play, organisation, formation, tactics, goals....were not evident enough to give any kind of optimiism. Which is more imprortant a manager who has the former or the latter? Both would be ideal, Bruce has the former and as yet very little evidence of the latter and that is where my concerns lay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 10 minutes ago, mykeyb said: It all depends on how you rank the information to hand. 4 promotions on paper does look promising, style of play, organisation, formation, tactics, goals....were not evident enough to give any kind of optimiism. Which is more imprortant a manager who has the former or the latter? Both would be ideal, Bruce has the former and as yet very little evidence of the latter and that is where my concerns lay. Style of play, organisation, formation, tactics, goals.......are all important aspects of the football model. However, if the the players are struggling to gel or combine in a fashion that suggests all those things are working....then changes must be made to personnel until the right blend can be achieved or found. Given the demise of the club, availability,FFP and the funds available is it little wonder this project is taking a little longer than we all hoped. Managers buy players hoping they will gel, some don't gel, for whatever reason, could be the players around them.....The sign of a good manager in one aspect of his job, is getting more right than wrong. We unlike lots of clubs have been changing too many in one go of late, that creates uncertainty amongst players, which subsequently affects confidence.....they end up thinking too much as opposed to playing instinctively Steve Bruce has always relied on a more empirical style, much like his mentor Fergie......who is to say that is better or worse than a manager that is more cogitative in their approach. The proof of the pudding....is in the eating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted June 16, 2017 Author Share Posted June 16, 2017 1 hour ago, mykeyb said: Rednapp took over a team that was destined for League 1, whilst they didnt look like scoring when they played us they certainly played the better of the two teams because of the work done in the limited time there, Bruce has made us harder to beat although his record is just as bad as RDM, there is no decernible pattern to our play, we have won games because of a bit of magic from Kodja, Adomah or Grealish and not because we dominated play. I would love bruce to be the man but I dont see it I really dont. I dont see any kind of improvement in style or organisation. It always looks like 11 blokes put on the pitch with no idea who is doing what. We were destined for league one when Bruce came in! One win in 12 we were in a complete mess. Sorry Mykey but the part in bold is simply not true RDM win ratio 8.33% Bruce win ratio 42.86% Although I understand your reservations with the last paragraph. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheStagMan Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 (edited) Its this 4 promotion things, therefore we will be OK that gets me. It seems like blind optimism that he will do it, when as others have posted above, he has not shown any signs of achieving it here. To me, it feels like hiring a builder to build you a house, you get someone who has built four houses before so you think it's all great. Six months in there are bricks everywhere, the foundations haven't been dug, the site caravan is upside down, the digger has been stolen and the workmen he hired are all in the corner having a fag. On top of that there is a chap from the council stood outside asking why you haven't got planning permission. what do you do? Sit and wait hoping he will build your house because he has built four houses before (two of which fell down) or do you get in another builder? Edited June 16, 2017 by TheStagMan 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 15 hours ago, Keener window-cleaner said: I agree with almost everything, but I think that Bruce in fact has implemented the basics and has a clear style of play: highest priority on defence, no risk taking, chosing grit over creativity - knock it long and hope to nick a goal on a corner or individual mistake in the second half. Then continue to defend. I think that is fair comment. Whether that suits all is unlikely, but a fair assessment, never the less Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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