Steve Bruce

[villa89]

15 hours ago, Demitri_C said:

Yeah Defoe is the difference, if he stays he will destroy this league like gayle has.

He can leave on a free when they go down so he won't be staying.

[TRO]

10 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

They'll lose Pickford as well. 

That will be a major removal

[TRO]

15 hours ago, KSV said:

Genuine question here for those that see us regularly lately. 

We seem to misplace passes and cant hold on to possession.. yet every other club seems to dominate us in that. 

Now.. firstly.. i think.. thats the game plan that Bruce has set.. yet Bruce comes out after and says we were poor and didnt hold on to the ball or protect the ball well. 

So whats the issue? Players like Hourihane and Lansbury are supposedly very good passers and controlled midfields at their previous clubs. 

Where do we fail most the time? Is it the defenders by passing our midfield and losing it.. are we hitting it long too often.. or Kodjia not holding up the ball well.

I just see the team on paper and think.. this is a side.. that should have 50-55% of the ball at home and really stuff a side.. as the quality is there.. yet our best win was 3-0 under RDM at the start of the season.

Considering we rely on Kodjia to score.. and not many others are chipping in.. is it our shape or tactics? players being used.. or a bit of everything. 

So whats the issue and how does Bruce fix it?

I accept what he is doing.....due to the results.

but to try and answer the question.

I think the 2 centre halves need to push up more, they are encouraging us to play too deep, consequently the midfield is playing too deep too and Kodjia then is the lone wolf, left isolated.

The gaps that is creating are then inviting the opposition to play in them subsequently enhancing their possession stats.We are just standing off and waiting for them to enter our danger zone.

I suspect the CB are not pushing up due to their lack of pace & subsequently Instruction.

the way we are playing is rely on smothering the opposition in our half and catching them on the break.

I'm not sure what to say, other than it does look very untidy, but we are winning.

I suspect it's just a means to an end for the moment.

Edited April 6, 2017 by TRO

[TRO]

I do not believe in any way shape or form.....

Steve Bruce is happy with what we are watching.

He has his thoughts and at the moment, he is getting the results he / we crave.

I do not believe either ,that the players are incapable of playing entertaining football.

I do believe rightly or wrongly this is a single minded plan to secure points.....and the main focus of that plan is to not concede.

whether I agree with that or anyone else.....that's what I think it is.

[kurtsimonw]

7 hours ago, KSV said:

Genuine question here for those that see us regularly lately. 

We seem to misplace passes and cant hold on to possession.. yet every other club seems to dominate us in that. 

Now.. firstly.. i think.. thats the game plan that Bruce has set.. yet Bruce comes out after and says we were poor and didnt hold on to the ball or protect the ball well. 

So whats the issue? Players like Hourihane and Lansbury are supposedly very good passers and controlled midfields at their previous clubs. 

Where do we fail most the time? Is it the defenders by passing our midfield and losing it.. are we hitting it long too often.. or Kodjia not holding up the ball well.

I just see the team on paper and think.. this is a side.. that should have 50-55% of the ball at home and really stuff a side.. as the quality is there.. yet our best win was 3-0 under RDM at the start of the season.

Considering we rely on Kodjia to score.. and not many others are chipping in.. is it our shape or tactics? players being used.. or a bit of everything. 

So whats the issue and how does Bruce fix it?

First of all, there's no way Bruce's game plan is to give the ball away. No manager actively wants to do that. 

But I do think it's somewhat down to the way we play. And as much as the fans think they don't affect the game, they do. When we play this 433 with Amavi and Adomah wide, both of them track back and our midfield 3 is pretty compact. So when we get the ball, the gap between the midfield and Kodjia is pretty massive, it gives us less opportunity to keep hold of it. Even when we do have possession, both Amavi and Adomah are very direct. The chances are, when they receive the ball, they either lose it or put it in the box so keeping possession often with those in the side is going to be difficult IMO. I'll probably get slated for it, but the fans do make a difference. As fans we like to think if we get behind the team that it helps, that we help a positive result and IMO it is true - but so is the reverse. Every single pass that isn't forwards is still met with a lot of negativity at VP. But that has to happen to build up play sometimes, but players have tried to force the ball forwards when they hear moans and groans and it doesnt help. 

We still tend to panic a bit and that's on individual players. Hoofing the ball clear rather than risk getting caught in possession. That's fine, I'd rather them not cost us a goal, but it's inevitably going to mean we see less of the ball. 

Its hard to criticise how we are set up off the ball, but I would like to see us press a little higher up at times. 

[Stevo985]

8 hours ago, KSV said:

Genuine question here for those that see us regularly lately. 

We seem to misplace passes and cant hold on to possession.. yet every other club seems to dominate us in that. 

Now.. firstly.. i think.. thats the game plan that Bruce has set.. yet Bruce comes out after and says we were poor and didnt hold on to the ball or protect the ball well. 

So whats the issue? Players like Hourihane and Lansbury are supposedly very good passers and controlled midfields at their previous clubs. 

 

I think there's two issues to this.

Firstly, the opposition having more possession probably IS partly down to Bruce. i think he's set us up to be compact at the back, soak up the opposition pressure because we have a very good defence, and then use our own possession effectively. So that part is the plan.

The second part, which Bruce bemoans, is a lack of composure in the players at times. On Tuesday it was towards the end of the game through fatigue or pressure or both. That part I'm sure isn't part of bruce's plan (unless he's instructing them to pass badly) 

[dont_do_it_doug.]

Indeed I don't think Bruce is bemoaning the lack of possession. I honestly don't think he gives a **** whether it's 35 or 65 percent, as long as we are winning. It's that we don't look after it well enough when we do have it. That might lead to more possession of course, but that is merely a byproduct. 

Despite that we are creating enough chances early in games to see teams off, rather than allowing the panic to set in when it's still 1-0 after 60 minutes, panic we are admittedly dealing with well. 

Story of our season really, we don't take enough of our chances. We're still bottom of the league for chance conversion. If we were to have gone 2-0 up after 20 minutes on Saturday or Tuesday, it's a totally different game.

Bring on Burton.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

Also worth noting, as @Stevo985 touches on, we're 40 games into the season. We clearly weren't fit enough going in to Bruce's tenure either. It's bound to be difficult for them to 'click' at this stage, but they are showing signs. 

We did have an extended pre season but to be honest now we're in a position to push for 6th the result is king again, at least until hope is extinguished. 

[Grasshopper]

I think its quite simple.

Bruce knows how to defend, be hard to beat which leads to a better chance of not losing, thus drawing and winning being a majority of his results.

Expansive/progressive play is not his strength so expecting us to dominate and then break down teams is not his thing.

For his "way" to work for us he needs a Kodjia. McC wasnt his style, Gaby although along the right lines wasnt capable enough. I think Hogan is not really a SB type of player but he may just be that good at this level that he will either assist or chip in with a few.

The only excuse I can offer on Bruces behalf is that, we dont play with enough freedom to let players like Lansbury, Hourihane, Grealish, an Ayew/McC or Hogan just do their thing attacking wise. It seems to me that he thinks we can play effectively within a strict rigid structure in the hope that 1 goal, a set piece or bit if individual magic can (and does) get us 3pts, but thinks they are unable to play with freedom and get results, So play rigid and get results is his belief.

I think he got this wrong but I've succumbed to his ways as its may work for this final push for a playoff place.

I'm just disappointed that once he'd stopped the rot by Nov/Dec he didnt "take our play to a next level" when we had enough belief and a few players good enough to give it a go knowing that DrT would back him in JanWin.

I'm no where near a fan of this football so I can only hope it works for now. If not, we'll need a change. The sooner we get out of this league the better.

[TRO]

I don't think in the main a possession reliant game works in this division.....prem yes, but not this league.

its more direct, more physical, and,more aerial reliant, and lends itself to a counter attacking game.....you have to have players who can deal with that.

those same players may then struggle with skills that are necessary for the possession game.

Edited April 6, 2017 by TRO

[Godders]

10 minutes ago, TRO said:

I don't think in the main a possession reliant game works in this division.....prem yes, but not this league.

its more direct, more physical, and,more aerial reliant, and lends itself to a counter attacking game.....you have to have players who can deal with that.

those same players may then struggle with skills that are necessary for the possession game.

I dunno. It doesn't necessarily sit right with me logically that a certain style of play will work in one league and not another. 

I suspect the main reason why there doesn't tend to be one-touch, tiki-taka style football in the Championship is because to play that style, you need players with an exceptional touch, exceptional technique, exceptional decision-making abilities and exceptional vision. Really, you need exceptional players. 

These players will naturally rise to the top of the game. So while we may get lucky and have 2 or 3 or 4 in the squad at one time, it would be very difficult for a Championship club to keep hold of them for any reasonable amount of time to be able to build a squad capable of playing that style- those players will head off to the bigger Prem/European clubs before too long. Especially since that's the style of football that seems to be en vogue. 

[Grasshopper]

24 minutes ago, TRO said:

I don't think in the main a possession reliant game works in this division.....prem yes, but not this league.

its more direct, more physical, and,more aerial reliant, and lends itself to a counter attacking game.....you have to have players who can deal with that.

those same players may then struggle with skills that are necessary for the possession game.

Sorry Tro

cant agree with this, there's more than one way to sh@g a sheep and there have been enough examples of teams in recent years doing it other than how you suggest. Bournemouth, PLs Norwich, Brighton and Toon this year.

I think one can safely say that this seasons 3 could very well be Toon, Brighton & 1 from Reading or Fulham who go about it different from us. In fact

If you look at that table I think you have to go as far down as Cardiff to start to find Turgid football and I'd go as far as to say only 2 of the relegation candidates Burton & Barnsley have tried to play football. Other teams below us e.g. Brentford and Barnsley play "attractiver" football than we do.

Results are results however you get them, so if we dont go up Bruce's way would have failed. On the other hand if he gets us to the playoffs, he'll have done the job. (Imho when he came in our only realistic target was 6th).

Winning the playoffs is a completely different ball game.

Edited April 6, 2017 by Grasshopper

[kurtsimonw]

We'll see next season then. We were bottom 3 when Bruce came in, so playoffs was never likely. Our form since his arrival has been playoff form, plus we've signed players to fit what he wants and obviously it's working. 

Bruce plays winning football at this level, that can't really be argued. 

[BOF]

8 minutes ago, kurtsimonw said:

that can't really be argued. 

You just said that on VillaTalk.  On. VillaTalk.  You just said something can't be argued

[dont_do_it_doug.]

1 hour ago, kurtsimonw said:

We'll see next season then. We were bottom 3 when Bruce came in, so playoffs was never likely. Our form since his arrival has been playoff form, plus we've signed players to fit what he wants and obviously it's working. 

Bruce plays winning football at this level, that can't really be argued. 

You mean he MANAGES winning football at this level. 

Goooood, what an idiot...

[TRO]

3 hours ago, Godders said:

I dunno. It doesn't necessarily sit right with me logically that a certain style of play will work in one league and not another. 

I suspect the main reason why there doesn't tend to be one-touch, tiki-taka style football in the Championship is because to play that style, you need players with an exceptional touch, exceptional technique, exceptional decision-making abilities and exceptional vision. Really, you need exceptional players. 

These players will naturally rise to the top of the game. So while we may get lucky and have 2 or 3 or 4 in the squad at one time, it would be very difficult for a Championship club to keep hold of them for any reasonable amount of time to be able to build a squad capable of playing that style- those players will head off to the bigger Prem/European clubs before too long. Especially since that's the style of football that seems to be en vogue. 

my points, was a generalisation.....but yeah, I get all that.

so, teams play to their strengths.

[TRO]

3 hours ago, Grasshopper said:

Sorry Tro

cant agree with this, there's more than one way to sh@g a sheep and there have been enough examples of teams in recent years doing it other than how you suggest. Bournemouth, PLs Norwich, Brighton and Toon this year.

I think one can safely say that this seasons 3 could very well be Toon, Brighton & 1 from Reading or Fulham who go about it different from us. In fact

If you look at that table I think you have to go as far down as Cardiff to start to find Turgid football and I'd go as far as to say only 2 of the relegation candidates Burton & Barnsley have tried to play football. Other teams below us e.g. Brentford and Barnsley play "attractiver" football than we do.

Results are results however you get them, so if we dont go up Bruce's way would have failed. On the other hand if he gets us to the playoffs, he'll have done the job. (Imho when he came in our only realistic target was 6th).

Winning the playoffs is a completely different ball game.

I will give you Bournemouth last season......but the rest Including Newcastle are nothing special to me in terms of possession football, they rely mainly on RItchie, Shelvey and Gayle....hardly Expansive.

I was talking in general, not specifically.

[Grasshopper]

9 minutes ago, TRO said:

I will give you Bournemouth last season......but the rest Including Newcastle are nothing special to me in terms of possession football, they rely mainly on RItchie, Shelvey and Gayle....hardly Expansive.

I was talking in general, not specifically.

I never talk about possesion football.

I want us to do something good with the ball when we have it.

Dominating the game is not just having possesion.

[TRO]

1 minute ago, Grasshopper said:

I never talk about possesion football.

I want us to do something good with the ball when we have it.

Dominating the game is not just having possesion.

Yeah, I know what you mean.

However, the move for our goal against QPR was good.

I do know what you mean, but I prefer to take the points and get the cosmetics right later.

[a m ole]

13 minutes ago, Grasshopper said:

I never talk about possesion football.

I want us to do something good with the ball when we have it.

Dominating the game is not just having possesion.

Like, I suppose, score more than the opposition?