Steve Bruce

[TrentVilla]

16 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

He probably shouldn't say things like we 'begged, stole an borrowed in the summer' considered he was backed pretty heavily in January. 

For someone that's been around so long his comments are surprising sometimes. 

Arse covering is what it is.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

5 minutes ago, TrentVilla said:

Arse covering is what it is.

To be honest I don't really blame him. I found the club pulling the FFP rug this summer a little bit uncomfortable. I get it, but I think they are being overly cautious and the lack of ambition shown was a bit disappointing. I am hopeful of the longer term plan, but I absolutely see his point.

As far as I am aware we have made a profit on transfer deals under him. Quite a large one actually?

[TrentVilla]

Just now, dont_do_it_doug. said:

To be honest I don't really blame him. I found the club pulling the FFP rug this summer a little bit uncomfortable. I get it, but I think they are being overly cautious and the lack of ambition shown was a bit disappointing. I am hopeful of the longer term plan, but I absolutely see his point.

As far as I am aware we have made a profit on transfer deals under him. Quite a large one actually?

I’m utterly baffled how you can call complying with FFP “pulling the rug” or how you think they are being overly cautious. I can only assume you aren’t fully aware of the FFP rules or potential punishments.

He doesn’t really have a point.

They backed him in January and the summer even if the outlay in the summer wasn’t high I didn’t see many other clubs bringing the types of players he signed in this league let alone on the wages they are on.

I also find it impossible to believe he wasn’t fully aware of the implications for the summer window of failing to get promoted. I rather suspect he was given the choice of spend in Jan last season and try and get up or save it for the summer.

I think whenever Bruce makes any kind of comment about funds, backing or lack of spending it’s poor form on his part.

[omariqy]

32 minutes ago, TrentVilla said:

I’m utterly baffled how you can call complying with FFP “pulling the rug” or how you think they are being overly cautious. I can only assume you aren’t fully aware of the FFP rules or potential punishments.

He doesn’t really have a point.

They backed him in January and the summer even if the outlay in the summer wasn’t high I didn’t see many other clubs bringing the types of players he signed in this league let alone on the wages they are on.

I also find it impossible to believe he wasn’t fully aware of the implications for the summer window of failing to get promoted. I rather suspect he was given the choice of spend in Jan last season and try and get up or save it for the summer.

I think whenever Bruce makes any kind of comment about funds, backing or lack of spending it’s poor form on his part.

Exactly. You just have to look at our wage bill to see what we have at our disposal. 

[Vive_La_Villa]

30 minutes ago, TrentVilla said:

I’m utterly baffled how you can call complying with FFP “pulling the rug” or how you think they are being overly cautious. I can only assume you aren’t fully aware of the FFP rules or potential punishments.

He doesn’t really have a point.

They backed him in January and the summer even if the outlay in the summer wasn’t high I didn’t see many other clubs bringing the types of players he signed in this league let alone on the wages they are on.

I also find it impossible to believe he wasn’t fully aware of the implications for the summer window of failing to get promoted. I rather suspect he was given the choice of spend in Jan last season and try and get up or save it for the summer.

I think whenever Bruce makes any kind of comment about funds, backing or lack of spending it’s poor form on his part.

He seems to make out that he is played a big part in getting the club back in to profit with his transfer activity. If that is true then fair play. But his remarks seem to complete dismiss January as if it never happened! 

I agree with Trent. Concentrate on the football and shutup about lack of funds.  They players bought in on small transfers or or on loan are some of the highest paid players in the league! 

[TRO]

I think both parties have a point to make.

Steve Bruce has not spent big money, he has tried to get in experienced players to help the younger players or players of less profile and create a blend.

The club have spent heavily in past seasons ,mainly borne out of managers who have not survived and equally have to balance the books, they have to invest and draw their horns in to suit the viability of the club.

its all very tricky.

For me, i just want to support both parties and hope they can work together.

There are many, many things that none of us are privvy to at our club and its no use for us to second guess, its not helpful.

We just have to react to results and performances and  the detail of it all is beyond us, so we just guess.

I feel confident that we will acheive our goals......just not sure when.....but it will happen, we just have to stick with it.

 

[TRO]

19 minutes ago, omariqy said:

Exactly. You just have to look at our wage bill to see what we have at our disposal. 

What a player gets paid and what he gives back in performance is 2 entirely different things.

we only need to look at Gabby to get an education lesson on this.

[TrentVilla]

10 minutes ago, TRO said:

I think both parties have a point to make.

Steve Bruce has not spent big money, he has tried to get in experienced players to help the younger players or players of less profile and create a blend.

The club have spent heavily in past seasons ,mainly borne out of managers who have not survived and equally have to balance the books, they have to invest and draw their horns in to suit the viability of the club.

its all very tricky.

For me, i just want to support both parties and hope they can work together.

There are many, many things that none of us are privvy to at our club and its no use for us to second guess, its not helpful.

We just have to react to results and performances and  the detail of it all is beyond us, so we just guess.

I feel confident that we will acheive our goals......just not sure when.....but it will happen, we just have to stick with it.

 

It’s Bruce that keeps making it a talking point. I think it would be better for all concerned if he stoppped, I agree it’s not helpful and it’s hard to see it as being anything other than self serving.

Yesterday was an impressive and important win, the talk from Bruce should be about that, the next game and possibly January. It shouldn’t be retrospective about net spend or the summer, he has forgotten all about January last year so I wish his amnesia could now extend to the summer.

Big big game on Tuesday especially with Coleman now confirmed.

[Lerner's Driver]

2 hours ago, Grasshopper said:

cue the most childish response in this thread.

You are not posting with reason, only for effect.

shame on you

You sound like one of the women from Pride and Prejudice, Grasshopper. 

Apologies if I offended your sensibilities Ma'am. 

[dont_do_it_doug.]

Just now, TrentVilla said:

I’m utterly baffled how you can call complying with FFP “pulling the rug” or how you think they are being overly cautious. I can only assume you aren’t fully aware of the FFP rules or potential punishments.

You're "utterly baffled" that I was disappointed that they were, in my opinion, overly cautious this summer? And that's an interesting, if false, assumption. 

I've not asked for heads to roll or claimed that the squad isn't up to scratch. I believe that the club could have spent £5m on a centre half, for example, and balanced that cost out over the next 2 years. But hey I don't know, you seem privvy to more information than myself? 

[TrentVilla]

Just now, dont_do_it_doug. said:

You're "utterly baffled" that I was disappointed that they were, in my opinion, overly cautious this summer? And that's an interesting, if false, assumption. 

I've not asked for heads to roll or claimed that the squad isn't up to scratch. I believe that the club could have spent £5m on a centre half, for example, and balanced that cost out over the next 2 years. But hey I don't know, you seem privvy to more information than myself? 

No. I quite clearly said what I was baffled by, it’s right there quoted in your post. 

I apologise, if you are fully informed on FFP fair enough. Perhaps you could explain how they could “balance out” the cost of a £5m player plus the wages over the course of 2 years?

Because FFP is over a three year period only when it comes to defining how much can be lost in a given year. The loses cannot be spread or balanced out over the three year period which is essentially what I believe you are suggesting.

They couldn’t over spend this year and under spend in following years to balance it out, it doesn’t work that way.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

21 minutes ago, TrentVilla said:

No. I quite clearly said what I was baffled by, it’s right there quoted in your post. 

I apologise, if you are fully informed on FFP fair enough. Perhaps you could explain how they could “balance out” the cost of a £5m player plus the wages over the course of 2 years?

Because FFP is over a three year period only when it comes to defining how much can be lost in a given year. The loses cannot be spread or balanced out over the three year period which is essentially what I believe you are suggesting.

They couldn’t over spend this year and under spend in following years to balance it out, it doesn’t work that way.

You said you were baffled by my assertion that they were overly cautious. It's right there quoted in your post. 

So before we sold Nathan Baker we were in breach of FFP, which in our case equals losses of £83m over the previous 3 seasons? We've a 3 year total of £61m to play with by the end of this season. If we don't go up we face a cliff edge, but I suspect we already know that.

If you have information I don't please say so and I will sincerely apologise but I imagine we will have to wait for the books. 

None of that stops me being disappointed. I suspect, though I don't know, that Steve Bruce also believes they were over cautious. Either that or he is making a case against FFP, in which I am fully behind him.

I certainly don't think it's as black and white as Club = good and Bruce = bad. 

Edited November 19, 2017 by dont_do_it_doug.

[omariqy]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

What a player gets paid and what he gives back in performance is 2 entirely different things.

we only need to look at Gabby to get an education lesson on this.

I don't think I mentioned anything about performances just the assertion that Bruce hasn't had money to spend. He has. Buying Terry for a free but spending £60k pw on wages is definitely having money to spend. If it was all about money then the likes of Sheff Utd and Cardiff wouldn't be ahead of us. It's about the team and the management of that team. 

[TrentVilla]

4 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

You said you were baffled by my assertion that they were overly cautious. It's right there quoted in your post. 

So before we sold Nathan Baker we were in breach of FFP, which in our case equals losses of £83m over the previous 3 seasons? We've a 3 year total of £61m to play with by the end of this season. If we don't go up we face a cliff edge, but I suspect we already know that.

If you have information I don't please say so and I will sincerely apologise but I imagine we will have to wait for the books. 

None of that stops me being disappointed. I suspect, though I don't know, that Steve Bruce also believes they were over cautious. Either that or he is making a case against FFP, in which I am fully behind him.

I certainly don't think it's as black and white as Club = good and Bruce = bad. 

You accused them of a lack of ambition and of pulling the plug while being overly cautious about FFP. That is what I found baffling because the assertion there is that FFP didn’t restrict our spending this summer.

As for the detail on FFP, the loses aren’t over the previous three seasons, they are over the previous two seasons and the current season based upon a projection in March.

In 5th September Wyness said the following;

“There are FFP limits. I know some fans think that doesn’t exist. But I can assure them it exists, very very clearly. We have to submit papers to the Football League every year and we are very clear of the sanctions if we were to breach FFP. There are limits. We have adhered to them. We are right on the red line with them but we will be okay. Dr Tony has backed us as far as he could do.”

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/aston-villa-chief-financial-fair-13578276.amp

We sold Nathan Baker in July well before this point.

At the point Wyness said this the clubs position in relation FFP was based on forecasts and projections taking into income and expenditure for the year ahead.

Perhaps they were cautious on those projections and as you say we’ve not seen the accounts yet and even when they come out in March they wk t give the answers on this season.

But given that the Chairman says we were on the red line and that the Dr couldn’t invest further I am as I said previously baffled by your assertion that they “pulled the plug” and were being overly cautious.

I’m wholeheartedly anti FFP, I’ve been very out spoken about it since it’s inception. But to suggest the club are being overly cautious about it, to claim they pulled the plug on Bruce in the summer is in my view not based on the reality of the situation.

I still don’t understand what makes you think the club could have afforded to spend £5m on a CB plus wages and other costs given the quote from Wyness. The cost of doing so could not be spread over coming seasons, we are already going to be struggling to comply next year with FFP if in the Championship as our annual loss allowance will drop considerably as will our income through decreased parachute payments.

Im not saying the club is good and Bruce is bad. The point is Bruce keeps raising finance as if the club haven’t backed him and frequently as of January didn’t happen. Yet unless Wyness is lying, which I doubt but I accept we can’t know for sure, then the truth appears to be that they gave him pretty much every penny they could.

I personally believe that to be the case and given that, given the spend in January and the resources afforded to him inherited and otherwise, Bruce really really needs to stop bringing it up.

That he continues to do so, isn’t in the clubs interests, it’s not in our interests as fans it’s purelly self serving in my view and I would like him to stop. 

I’d like him to be more positive off the pitch as well as on it and stop coming out with what sounds like an excuse especially in the wake of such a positive performance and result.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

37 minutes ago, TrentVilla said:

You accused them of a lack of ambition and of pulling the plug while being overly cautious about FFP. That is what I found baffling because the assertion there is that FFP didn’t restrict our spending this summer.

I think you have misunderstood my post tonally. I was careful not to make out like I believe Dr Tony is sitting in his lair like a bond style villain ready to launch a nuke towards Aston at the first sign of trouble. I am however expressing caution of my own, because if the club were in a position where they needed to make a profit this summer of £15-22m (depending how you count the Amavi fee) then somebody has been doing a poor job controlling the purse strings.

I didn't say FFP didn't restrict our spending because I am aware of the restrictions and potential penalties. I asserted that I wasn't convinced it restricted our spending as much as is being suggested. If we HAD to sell Nathan Baker in order to keep our head above water then that is truly worrying indeed. Is that what you are suggesting? In layman's terms, is it the case that Wyness spunked the lot on RDM and then we sacked him within 11 games? Bruce then had approximately £5m net to play with in January, minus the huge profit made this summer.

Wages are of course an unknown factor. In fact, all of this is speculation. You happen to fall completely on the side of the club which is your choice, I am somewhere in the middle I think.

If it is wholly correct that we are right on the line, I'm glad he is highlighting the issue and hope that we learn from it. Besides which, his words are hardly scathing...

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/881619/Aston-Villa-News-Steve-Bruce-Tony-Xia-Transfer-Budget-January-EFL-Championship

Quote

He told The People newspaper: "The club will try to help me, I know they will. I'm due to see the chairman. He's talking to me. Money is an issue because of FFP - still.

"You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see how much money the club has spent over the years.

"We spent £2m in the summer and took in £20m. Personally, I'm in credit. But I've still got a hole to look at.

"I understand it's difficult at a club like this.

"And I know the people here will do the best they can. We begged, stole and borrowed in the summer.

"We got in Josh Onomah, Sam Johnstone and Robert Snodgrass - all on loan, all good players.

"That's the situation we are in - and that's what we are facing.

"And that's when I, as a manager, earn my money."

The headline is extremely misleading. He is answering a question regarding the January budget. 

[srsmithusa]

Oh goodie.  We get to hear more about FFP.   

[Grasshopper]

2 hours ago, Lerner's Driver said:

You sound like one of the women from Pride and Prejudice, Grasshopper. 

Apologies if I offended your sensibilities Ma'am. 

another post that avoids committing yourself to an opinion and why.

Is it because you fear making a „football based“ comment would expose you knowledge of the game?

Intellectual wordings can only cover up so much when the substance is missing.

 

[Jareth]

Bit tetchy this thread, and for once Steve Bruce is not to blame!

[Grasshopper]

5 minutes ago, Jareth said:

Bit tetchy this thread, and for once Steve Bruce is not to blame!

oh yes he is

[Lerner's Driver]

7 hours ago, Grasshopper said:

another post that avoids committing yourself to an opinion and why.

Is it because you fear making a „football based“ comment would expose you knowledge of the game?

Intellectual wordings can only cover up so much when the substance is missing.

 

All of my posts are football based, old chap, I never get emotional and bring my hobbies, work and girlfriend into the conversation.

Granted, some of what I post is tangential at times, but in this thread at least, it is always done to express my opinion that some, with yourself as the main culprit, need to give the incessant whingeing a rest and just see what unfolds.

It has always been my football based opinion that Steven Bruce is far from perfect in executing his managerial duties at this club and probaby most of the others he's been at too.

But... as I said a few million pages back, that's what you get with him. His journey is often slow, a bit cumbersome, often inclusive of hiccups and frequently successful in the end.

I don't like what sounds like his excuse making either, but it doesn't make me hate him. I don't like the fact he plays Hutton or Thor when both can be liabilities, but I've certainly been wrong about the former in recent weeks.

And yes, I didn't like the negative, shapeless, 'don't lose' football we've seen for too long, but nobody on here did. At the same time, I didn't analyse every substitution in order to prove Bruce's incompetence, partly because it would be pointless to do so and party because nobody wants to read it when it comes across as an endless rant.

I don't love Bruce or even particularly defend him, other than to say, things are rarely as crystal clear as we believe them to be. Instead, we draw on certain facts including the things we see to construct the theories which suit our vision of the world... But that doesn't mean we are right.

Trump happens, Corbyn happens, Hutton happens, Villa playing well and winning under Bruce and his awkward lumpy leadership happens.