Steve Bruce

[bannedfromHandV]

3 minutes ago, bobzy said:

They will handle it just as well as every other club in the division.

It should be noted, as well, that they play Barnsley away on the 13th January - a full 12 days after their previous game (Brentford at home).  That congested period for Wolves is:

Ipswich (H) - 23rd December
Millwall (A) - 26th December
Bristol City (A) - 30th December
Brentford (H) - 1st January

Whilst no-one wants to go to Millwall on Boxing Day (or, indeed, ever) and Bristol City are a handy enough side, those aren't the most challenging of fixtures.

(Just for comparison, and to get back on topic, Steve Bruce's Villa have to contend with:

Sheffield United (H) - 23rd December
Brentford (A) - 26th December
Middlesbrough (A) - 30th December
Bristol City (H) - 1st January)

It's less about the opposition but more the volume of games.

 

Also the cultural aspect when you consider that on the continent they're used to having a break around that time.

 

I'm not saying I expect them to struggle but it's a possibility, particularly amongst their foreign contingent.

[bobzy]

7 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

It's less about the opposition but more the volume of games.

 

Also the cultural aspect when you consider that on the continent they're used to having a break around that time.

 

I'm not saying I expect them to struggle but it's a possibility, particularly amongst their foreign contingent.

Has this ever actually happened?  Curious as it's definitely a football... "thing".

"Could they do it on a cold Tuesday in Stoke?"
"Those foreigners are usually on break over the Christmas period"

Has it ever been a problem before?

[briny_ear]

6 hours ago, Dave J said:

Do you really think he earned another shot after the dross and debacle he served up last season ? 

I think you’re missing the point. It’s totally irrelevant what I (or anyone else on this board) think.

The only people who matter are Tony Xia and the Villa board. They obviously thought he had earned another shot. 

[dn1982]

1 hour ago, NurembergVillan said:

The Villa Engine is supposed to be the system we will adopt irrespective of manager.  Like Southampton or Watford have in place.  How far along it is, we don't know.

It's not been addressed fully, but the tables show that the trajectory is upward and that's a good sign.  In terms of results away to other top half teams, we've not played enough of them to really draw a conclusion.  You could argue that we were poor away from home at the start of the season and hence the "better' teams beat us, or you could argue that we were poor because we were playing the "better" teams.

In terms of away form in general, I'm not typically one for this "big club" chat but I certainly feel that we're still a novelty in this division and there's a caché attached to beating Aston Villa so whilst I wouldn't see that as an excuse I think it's worth bearing in mind.

I hadn't read that anywhere, so if you have a link I'd love to learn more.  I saw his big interview about it in general, but hadn't seen any progress updates or anything relating to SB.  It'd definitely help the conversation if you can post that link.

My point is last year you could've told took Bruces first 10 games and had the same sort of table but our away form still isn't good enough and for me personally we still haven't beaten a team that I wouldn't expect expect to. We have to start getting results against top half teams. The highest team we've beat is Fulham I think and away it's Barnsley in 19th. That has to change. We've only played 4 of the top 10 so we will have a very tough run sooner or later. Last year when Bruce came he went on a run to get us within 6 of the play offs but then we played those above us and we dropped out of it. Unless we get a backbone away and beat the top teams at home we will struggle to keep in there.  

[NurembergVillan]

8 minutes ago, briny_ear said:

I think you’re missing the point. It’s totally irrelevant what I (or anyone else on this board) think.

The only people who matter are Tony Xia and the Villa board. They obviously thought he had earned another shot. 

And based on current form you'd say they were right.

FTR, I'm not a Steve Bruce fan as such.  I'm an Aston Villa fan, trying to look at our situation through the lens of a businessman - because that's what Xia and Wyness are (should be) doing.

I'd have sacked him at the end of last season.  But I've no real insight into what it's like behind the scenes, so for whatever reason the businessmen kept him on.  And right now, it's looking like that was the correct thing to do.  That might change, and this successful run might prove to be a blip, or we might be top at the end of May.

Right now, as we've had to wait SOOOOOOO long for a run of form like we're in at the moment, it'd be nice to just enjoy it.

[Vive_La_Villa]

My concern is (and I think many share the same concern) that although we are winning games we are still playing in a similar style too last season. I.e. No real control of games.  We also saw good runs last season which soon became bad runs as the performances weren't convincing. The worry is the same will happen this season. I think it's an understandable concern.

does that make sense? 

[NurembergVillan]

5 minutes ago, dn1982 said:

We have to start getting results against top half teams.

 

5 minutes ago, dn1982 said:

We've only played 4 of the top 10

I'm not trying to be a dick here, but just read that again.

Give the guy a chance.  Our form right now suggests he deserves one.

[NurembergVillan]

3 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

My concern is (and I think many share the same concern) that although we are winning games we are still playing in a similar style too last season. I.e. No real control of games.  We also saw good runs last season which soon became bad runs as the performances weren't convincing. The worry is the same will happen this season. I think it's an understandable concern.

does that make sense? 

It makes sense to an extent, but then I think our performances are becoming more convincing as the season goes on.  We had back-to-back away wins (albeit against weaker opposition) where we spanked them and could've scored more.

Saturday was another one where we were the better side and realistically the scoreline should've been more comfortable than it was.  He changed tactics from the previous game - and indeed from the excellent run of form prior to that - and both nullified the threat of Fulham and had us looking a threat going forward.

One of the main problems we face as Villa fans is that we've been so shit for so long that it seems improbable that we might eventually turn a corner.  If this current run of form continues to, say, 20 games then you'll see more confidence in the team AND the fans.  The belief will be palpable and the fear gone.  At that point I'd hope we'll see ever more commanding performances.

The signs suggest that's the direction we're heading.  I hope to McGrath it continues that way.

[dn1982]

Just now, NurembergVillan said:

 

I'm not trying to be a dick here, but just read that again.

Give the guy a chance.  Our form right now suggests he deserves one.

It seems you chose to be a dick when you left out the rest of the sentence? My whole point is we struggle against the better teams. Our form right now is good but look at who we've played!!! Our home form has been good all along but for us to progress BRUce has to sort the away form. We need to get wins at places you don't expect. Blues will be tough. But Preston is a bigger game. 

[Vive_La_Villa]

Just now, NurembergVillan said:

It makes sense to an extent, but then I think our performances are becoming more convincing as the season goes on.  We had back-to-back away wins (albeit against weaker opposition) where we spanked them and could've scored more.

Saturday was another one where we were the better side and realistically the scoreline should've been more comfortable than it was.  He changed tactics from the previous game - and indeed from the excellent run of form prior to that - and both nullified the threat of Fulham and had us looking a threat going forward.

One of the main problems we face as Villa fans is that we've been so shit for so long that it seems improbable that we might eventually turn a corner.  If this current run of form continues to, say, 20 games then you'll see more confidence in the team AND the fans.  The belief will be palpable and the fear gone.  At that point I'd hope we'll see ever more commanding performances.

The signs suggest that's the direction we're heading.  I hope to McGrath it continues that way.

This is true. We've had more false dawns than an artic winter! 

Wolves aside you sense the players are starting to believe in themselves more. 

[tom_avfc]

16 minutes ago, dn1982 said:

My point is last year you could've told took Bruces first 10 games and had the same sort of table but our away form still isn't good enough and for me personally we still haven't beaten a team that I wouldn't expect expect to. We have to start getting results against top half teams. The highest team we've beat is Fulham I think and away it's Barnsley in 19th. That has to change. We've only played 4 of the top 10 so we will have a very tough run sooner or later. Last year when Bruce came he went on a run to get us within 6 of the play offs but then we played those above us and we dropped out of it. Unless we get a backbone away and beat the top teams at home we will struggle to keep in there.  

This isn't even true. We've played 5 out of the top 10 (Cardiff, Wolves, Norwich, Bristol and Fulham) and we are also one of the teams in the top 10. Considering we've played 13 games you'd expect us to have played around 5. So in the remaining 10 games up to half way through the season we face 4 top 10 teams.

If you then factor in that we've played the teams in 12th, 13th and 14th I don't think you can argue that we've had easier fixtures than other teams in the league up to this point.

Additionally, the highest team we've beaten at home are Norwich who sit in 6th in the table and are also the highest team in the league who we have played at home. The next highest team we have played at home are Fulham in 10th and again we beat them.

I'd agree with you that winning some more away games would be nice although with two of our away games this season being against the top two and with the recent upturn in away results I'm slightly more confident.

Edited October 25, 2017 by tom_avfc

[NurembergVillan]

10 minutes ago, dn1982 said:

It seems you chose to be a dick when you left out the rest of the sentence? My whole point is we struggle against the better teams. Our form right now is good but look at who we've played!!! Our home form has been good all along but for us to progress BRUce has to sort the away form. We need to get wins at places you don't expect. Blues will be tough. But Preston is a bigger game. 

I highlighted the salient points.  You say we struggle against better teams.  You then claim we haven't played many of them.

@tom_avfc has then shown that we HAVE played a few more of the top half teams AND we've done ok against them.

The point I'm perhaps clumsily trying to make is we can only beat what's put in front of us, and over the last 10 games that's largely what we've been doing.

[dn1982]

6 minutes ago, tom_avfc said:

This isn't even true. We've played 5 out of the top 10 (Cardiff, Wolves, Norwich, Bristol and Fulham) and we are also one of the teams in the top 10. Considering we've played 13 games you'd expect us to have played around 5. So in the remaining 10 games up to half way through the season we face 4 top 10 teams.

If you then factor in that we've played the teams in 12th, 13th and 14th I don't think you can argue that we've had easier fixtures than other teams in the league up to this point.

Additionally, the highest team we've beaten at home are Norwich who sit in 6th in the table and are also the highest team in the league who we have played at home. The next highest team we have played at home are Fulham in 10th and again we beat them.

I'd agree with you that winning some more away games would be nice although with two of our away games this season being against the top two and with the recent upturn in away results I'm slightly more confident.

Missed off Norwich but the point about our away form still stands. Our home form isn't an issue and wasn't last season. I pointed out initially that from all those tables it's the away one that's that needs improving. We still haven't won a game that I've not expected us to. From niw till December there's only one game Preston where on paper it's unexpected. Most top teams will win the games that we've so far but it'll be the head to heads that'll decide where we finally finish. 

[dn1982]

3 minutes ago, NurembergVillan said:

I highlighted the salient points.  You say we struggle against better teams.  You then claim we haven't played many of them.

@tom_avfc has then shown that we HAVE played a few more of the top half teams AND we've done ok against them.

The point I'm perhaps clumsily trying to make is we can only beat what's put in front of us, and over the last 10 games that's largely what we've been doing.

The whole initial point was about the away table needing improving.  Who have we beat this season where you thought what a win? You can only beat what's in front of you and I said we'd get harder runs to come but you didn't highlight that! Up until December Preston is our only really tough game against a top side we need to capitalise on it. Oh and I missed off a home win against Norwich but that shows our home form is good it's getting results away that's the issue still. 

[Demitri_C]

30 minutes ago, dn1982 said:

My point is last year you could've told took Bruces first 10 games and had the same sort of table but our away form still isn't good enough and for me personally we still haven't beaten a team that I wouldn't expect expect to. We have to start getting results against top half teams. The highest team we've beat is Fulham I think and away it's Barnsley in 19th. That has to change. We've only played 4 of the top 10 so we will have a very tough run sooner or later. Last year when Bruce came he went on a run to get us within 6 of the play offs but then we played those above us and we dropped out of it. Unless we get a backbone away and beat the top teams at home we will struggle to keep in there.  

We can also say barring Reading we haven't lost a game against any other side outside the top two. More challenging games await but I feel confident we can pick up some victories on the road. the sty would be a good start. Those top two have to come to Villa Park and both of those games will be a different kettle of fish esp Cardiff as blew them apart at Villa Park last year. 

[tom_avfc]

2 minutes ago, dn1982 said:

Missed off Norwich but the point about our away form still stands. Our home form isn't an issue and wasn't last season. I pointed out initially that from all those tables it's the away one that's that needs improving. We still haven't won a game that I've not expected us to. From niw till December there's only one game Preston where on paper it's unexpected. Most top teams will win the games that we've so far but it'll be the head to heads that'll decide where we finally finish. 

I don't think our away form has been disastrous this season to be honest:

Cardiff (L) - Cardiff are currently unbeaten at home (4 wins and 2 draws) with the 4th best home record in the league

Reading (L) - This ones a bad result - probably our worst of the season

Bristol (D) - Decent point - Bristol currently have 3 wins, 3 draws and 1 loss at home

Barnsley (W) - As expected - Barnsley have lost 3 out of 7 at home this season

Burton (W) - Again as expected - Burton have lost 3 out of 6

Wolves (L) - Wolves have lost 1 out of 7 and have the second best home record in the league

So in total we've taken 7 points from 6 games leaving us 9th in the away table having played a game fewer away than a lot of the sides above us. Considering that 2 of those games are against the current top 2 in the league who have 1 home defeat between them I'm not sure we've done too badly.

[NurembergVillan]

26 minutes ago, dn1982 said:

The whole initial point was about the away table needing improving.  Who have we beat this season where you thought what a win? You can only beat what's in front of you and I said we'd get harder runs to come but you didn't highlight that! Up until December Preston is our only really tough game against a top side we need to capitalise on it. Oh and I missed off a home win against Norwich but that shows our home form is good it's getting results away that's the issue still. 

My whole point is that we need to look at THIS SEASON.

My personal view is that it's unfair to judge the manager on whether we might beat teams who we haven't played yet.  We've played 6 away games.  The away table needs improving, and indeed IS improving.

I agree that I'll be hoping/expecting that we'll beat some of our direct rivals on their own patch as the season develops.  I also agree with posters who say that our performances haven't always been as polished as I'd like.  Things are going in the right direction this season though.

[srsmithusa]

24 minutes ago, NurembergVillan said:

I highlighted the salient points.  You say we struggle against better teams.  You then claim we haven't played many of them.

@tom_avfc has then shown that we HAVE played a few more of the top half teams AND we've done ok against them.

The point I'm perhaps clumsily trying to make is we can only beat what's put in front of us, and over the last 10 games that's largely what we've been doing.

this kind of post reminds me of the wizard of OZ.  "Pay no attention to the first 11 months he was here!"  Only pay attention to the last 10.   If we're going to ignore anything before the last 10 does that mean we can ignore the history of 4 promotions from this league?  or are we only supposed to ignore that bit in the middle when we had the most expensive, highest paid roster in the league and still were horrible?

Personally, I think we should look at ALL the facts.  His history of promotions bought him a chance from me.  His performance in the first year of his tenure was not up to the goals set for him or by him and we were terrible.  He should have been sacked.  The last 10 games have been a welcomed and long overdue string of results.  I hope it continues, but telling me to ignore his contribution to it taking so long to get here, is not going to work.

[NurembergVillan]

32 minutes ago, srsmithusa said:

this kind of post reminds me of the wizard of OZ.  "Pay no attention to the first 11 months he was here!"  Only pay attention to the last 10.   If we're going to ignore anything before the last 10 does that mean we can ignore the history of 4 promotions from this league?  or are we only supposed to ignore that bit in the middle when we had the most expensive, highest paid roster in the league and still were horrible?

Personally, I think we should look at ALL the facts.  His history of promotions bought him a chance from me.  His performance in the first year of his tenure was not up to the goals set for him or by him and we were terrible.  He should have been sacked.  The last 10 games have been a welcomed and long overdue string of results.  I hope it continues, but telling me to ignore his contribution to it taking so long to get here, is not going to work.

I'm not telling anyone to do anything.  We're (nearly) all grown-ups on here.

I choose to ignore his previous 4 promotions as that information has served its purpose.  That was what got him the job.  It doesn't now make me think we should keep him because of that if he's performing badly.  As I explained previously too, I don't want to use too much of last season to influence my thinking as it's gone now.  I'd have sacked him in the summer.  We didn't.  He's still here.  He's doing alright this season.  Last season is now irrelevant.

Personally, I'm finding it more beneficial to assess him based on his performance this season.  I'm finding it's giving me a slightly different view, one that is both more optimistic and more enjoyable.  I like it.

You're welcome to pay attention to whatever you choose.

[bannedfromHandV]

2 hours ago, bobzy said:

Has this ever actually happened?  Curious as it's definitely a football... "thing".

"Could they do it on a cold Tuesday in Stoke?"
"Those foreigners are usually on break over the Christmas period"

Has it ever been a problem before?

I can't pull out a specific example but there have, in my mind at least, been umpteen occasions where players/teams have looked shit hot over the first few months to then begin tailing off around that period.

 

Again, I don't expect this to happen necessarily but it's a distinct possibility.

 

We are in complete opposition to this given that all of our players know exactly what to expect and are culturally aligned for it.