Steve Bruce

[Vive_La_Villa]

46 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

I couldn't disagree more. 

Less strikers doesn't mean more negative. That's an over simplification.

5 in midfield would have meant we might have held onto the ball for more than 3 passes, as well as being able to close down the opposition more and win the ball back. 

As it was we had two men up front doing nothing the whole game while our midfield got bypassed again and again. 

Agree with this which is why I can't get my head around why a so called defensive manager completely played in to their hands by leaving us so open. Makes no sense. 

[Demitri_C]

44 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

I couldn't disagree more. 

Less strikers doesn't mean more negative. That's an over simplification.

5 in midfield would have meant we might have held onto the ball for more than 3 passes, as well as being able to close down the opposition more and win the ball back. 

As it was we had two men up front doing nothing the whole game while our midfield got bypassed again and again. 

Disagree. I think opposite you have more men but then when you try find your one man up top he is drowned out by opposition defenders. How many times have we seen when we played one up top balls flying into the box but no one there to get to it. Kodjia had this problem so many times last season.

I think it was the way they were instructed to be more cautious and not the formation that was the problem Saturday. Bruce has to take responsibility for that instruction. My view. 

[TRO]

9 hours ago, TheStagMan said:

Don't be silly Grasshopper, this is a hysterical over reaction to a single loss. Steve Bruce is the man to save us. Did you not notice the fantastic run of form we are on??? we have battered the weaker teams of this league over the last month, battered.

It's a blip I tells you, a blip. Despite Steve Bruce's teams putting in this type of lacklustre defense oriented performance for 20+ years, the last four wins against lowly opposition prove, PROVE that his footballing philosophy has suddenly changed, and we will now be propelled up the league, not only to gain automatic promotion, but we will be promoted Early and will actually play the second half of the season in the premier league as a reward for the aulwesome performances that are coming.

 

Sorry, I was believing the hype for a moment there.

Steve Bruce to save us? The only thing Bruce is going to save us from is receiving kicking after kicking in the prem next season and coming straight back down with an even lower points total than last time. He will achieve this by keeping us safely in the Championship.

 

Anyone thinking Bruce will get us promoted is deluding themselves.a change is needed, sadly it won't happen.

and the change is who?

look, I think the performance against Wolves was poor.....but who is the man to come in and right Bruces wrongs.

I accept that is no reason to keep him....but it is just as dangerous to change for changes sake.

I have supported Bruce as you know, but that does not make me happy with all I see on match day.....I have always been expecting him to remedy much of the poor play i.e passing & moving, ball control, ball retention, etc.

I am still waiting....I have never said I will unconditionally support him.....but the 64 million dollar question is.....who is the man to make it better.

Its not a loaded question, quite a legitimate one.

Edited October 16, 2017 by TRO

[AshVilla]

I'm expecting 3 points against Fulham.

No excuses, thanks.

[TRO]

4 minutes ago, AshVilla said:

I'm expecting 3 points against Fulham.

No excuses, thanks.

I can tell you this....

If we play like we did against Wolves and Blues like they did against Cardiff......They will dump us on our *****

[TRO]

33 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Agree with this which is why I can't get my head around why a so called defensive manager completely played in to their hands by leaving us so open. Makes no sense. 

I don't think we was that open in terms of set up.....we just had too many individuals having a mare.....just selecting one,that was the worst I have seen of Elmo....like a bambi on ice.

Edited October 16, 2017 by TRO

[VILLAMARV]

Bruce is walking the tightrope for me. Straight on to another huge game against Fulham. A win would go some way to proving we can mix it with the better teams in this league - which is by far and away the biggest question mark right now for me. A draw and it's another tentative step along the tightrope. Lose it and he may well need to go to the sty and win to keep his job. Still very fine margins at the moment and all of our own making. There's still work to be done to make up for the poor start.

I am glad we have some width and some competition for places when everyone is fit out wide but in the middle our central midfield is still our weakness. Those looking in will see Hourihane's return and think we're ok but we know different. I think the 'Lampard of the Championship' is a good comparison. Not that I'm knocking Hourihane, but for me our problems in the middle - obviously highlighted on the weekend - are that we lack anyone with any real on the ball ability and someone who - like Neves did - can run the show. Still never replaced Milner in that regard. The problem that leaves us with is having to pack the midfield with bodies and how we generally struggle to create much with 1 up top.

The way we tail off in the second half of games is still worrying, whatever is said about improvements in fitness. Personally I feel we spend so much time chasing the game that we're up against it from the start "they can't keep this up for 90 minutes Cotton" although in fairness it's been a high pressing game that's beaten the lower teams. Our away form needs to improve. 7 points from 6 games on the road so far (W2-D1-L3). It will be easier to point at the opposition and make a case for us playing decent teams away from home if we prove it's an anomaly and only then. At the moment we've lost 50% of our away games, plain and simple. And like I said earlier, we need to beat some of the top half teams. Fulham, Preston away and Sheffield Wednesday all up in the next 5 games Ipswich, Leeds and Sheffield Utd in the bunch after them. At the moment our record is (W1-D2-L2) and the solitary win against Norwich looks a little lonely.

Of the remaining 11 games in the first half of the season I'd say Preston and Leeds away and Sheffield Utd at home look tricky as does the Fulham game imo but hardly unwinnable any of them. 33 points on offer. he needs 27 of them to catch up to any mystical 2 point average by then.

[Vive_La_Villa]

6 minutes ago, TRO said:

I don't think we was that open in terms of set up.....we just had too many individuals having a mare.....just selecting one,that was the worst I have seen of Elmo....like a bambi on ice.

We had no midfield. Whenever we had an attack or freekick and they won the ball we were always out numbered. Should have packed the midfield and played ugly. It's out strength. 

[Johnnyp]

I think fulham will do us Saturday.  Under Bruce we will come up short in this division against teams who are technically superior to us and though their form might not suggest it, Fulham are .

[TrentVilla]

I think I’m right in saying that in the year Bruce has been in charge of the club we haven’t spent 1 day in the top 6. 

Not all his fault, granted given where we were when he arrived but fair to say I don’t think anyone would have predicted the above let alone thought it would be acceptable.

Whatever the merits or otherwise of his appointment, whatever it’s logic and irrespective of how widely welcomed he was his appointment to date hasn’t worked.

Some we argue we are on track, we are improving and that the results over the last 10 games support that. Others will say the improvement is marginal, the football not good enough to mount a challenge and too many excuses are made.

Personally I fall into the later camp. I don’t think his performance over the last 12 months has been good enough, I don’t think the performances are good enough to take us up and I think with every passing month he looks more and more yesterdays man like some of the players he signed.

I accept the logic of those saying we don’t need another change, I don’t think anyone wants one, and I accept the charge that we would be mocked for making one.

But in the support of those views let’s not pretend Bruce has done or is doing a good job, let’s not kid ourselves real tangible progress is being made even if we have enjoyed a good run of results prior to Wolves.

Automatic promotion is gone in my opinion, we aren’t good enough and aren’t attacking enough to win the sort of number of games required to achieve it.

So now it’s about trying to get into the dreaded play offs. Was that really people’s hope or expectation in the summer?

We have absolutely no devine right to achieve it but I think we had reason to expect a challenge for automatic promotion.

Yes, I know how many games have been played, how many remain and what the current points difference is before people reply with reference to them. I make this post in full awareness of them. 

As I posted a few pages back, look at the wins the theee promoted sides achieved last season. Can you really see us matching that sort of win ratio?

So for the Dr the questions now are, is Bruce the best bet for reaching the play offs? Can I afford to make a change of manager and support him in the market to improve things in line with FFP?

My concern is that the answer to both those questions is no. But that the answer to the second question impacts what is done about the negative answer to the first.

I’m just not sure we can afford to get rid of Bruce and other staff, replace them and give them new players to change things and comply with FFP.

I think we’ve gambled twice already and now we are left holding onto the seat and hoping the ride ends how we wish.

So as much as I think Bruce is doing a poor job, as much as I’d like to see a change, as much as I think his football philosophy is a decade old I fear we are stuck with him.

So we best hope we keep beating the dross in this league and hope we scrape enough points from the rest to get into that top 6 and get promoted.

One thing is for sure, if we do I will still think a change of manager is needed if we are really going to take the club forward.

 

[TRO]

27 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

We had no midfield. Whenever we had an attack or freekick and they won the ball we were always out numbered. Should have packed the midfield and played ugly. It's out strength. 

We had no midfield because the 4 that was in there failed to make an impact, they were shabby, slow and lethargic as opposed to Wolves  being sharp and purposeful.....and subsequently that impacted on the 2 up front ,Thats over half our team below par.....add that to a poor game from Elmo and its a wonder we kept it to 2

Its like someone else wrote.....We don't need to emulate Wolves , We need to play like a better Aston Villa.

Too many players off colour on the same night.

[briny_ear]

21 minutes ago, Johnnyp said:

I think fulham will do us Saturday.  Under Bruce we will come up short in this division against teams who are technically superior to us and though their form might not suggest it, Fulham are .

I put my hands up and confess I have no idea what that phrase means. What aspects of Fulham's team show their "technical superiority" to ours?

Take a case study. On 16 September Fulham travelled to Burton and lost 1-2. 10 days later we went there and won 4-0. How was Fulham's technical superiority demonstrated in these results?

Genuine question.

[TRO]

18 minutes ago, TrentVilla said:

I think I’m right in saying that in the year Bruce has been in charge of the club we haven’t spent 1 day in the top 6. 

Not all his fault, granted given where we were when he arrived but fair to say I don’t think anyone would have predicted the above let alone thought it would be acceptable.

Whatever the merits or otherwise of his appointment, whatever it’s logic and irrespective of how widely welcomed he was his appointment to date hasn’t worked.

Some we argue we are on track, we are improving and that the results over the last 10 games support that. Others will say the improvement is marginal, the football not good enough to mount a challenge and too many excuses are made.

Personally I fall into the later camp. I don’t think his performance over the last 12 months has been good enough, I don’t think the performances are good enough to take us up and I think with every passing month he looks more and more yesterdays man like some of the players he signed.

I accept the logic of those saying we don’t need another change, I don’t think anyone wants one, and I accept the charge that we would be mocked for making one.

But in the support of those views let’s not pretend Bruce has done or is doing a good job, let’s not kid ourselves real tangible progress is being made even if we have enjoyed a good run of results prior to Wolves.

Automatic promotion is gone in my opinion, we aren’t good enough and aren’t attacking enough to win the sort of number of games required to achieve it.

So now it’s about trying to get into the dreaded play offs. Was that really people’s hope or expectation in the summer?

We have absolutely no devine right to achieve it but I think we had reason to expect a challenge for automatic promotion.

Yes, I know how many games have been played, how many remain and what the current points difference is before people reply with reference to them. I make this post in full awareness of them. 

As I posted a few pages back, look at the wins the theee promoted sides achieved last season. Can you really see us matching that sort of win ratio?

So for the Dr the questions now are, is Bruce the best bet for reaching the play offs? Can I afford to make a change of manager and support him in the market to improve things in line with FFP?

My concern is that the answer to both those questions is no. But that the answer to the second question impacts what is done about the negative answer to the first.

I’m just not sure we can afford to get rid of Bruce and other staff, replace them and give them new players to change things and comply with FFP.

I think we’ve gambled twice already and now we are left holding onto the seat and hoping the ride ends how we wish.

So as much as I think Bruce is doing a poor job, as much as I’d like to see a change, as much as I think his football philosophy is a decade old I fear we are stuck with him.

So we best hope we keep beating the dross in this league and hope we scrape enough points from the rest to get into that top 6 and get promoted.

One thing is for sure, if we do I will still think a change of manager is needed if we are really going to take the club forward.

 

I fully understand your sentiments.....some I agree with FWIW and some I don't.

I don't think he has done  a poor job, but I don't think he has done a great job either, sorry for sitting on the fence......I watch some of the individual play and i squirm, such is their inability to retain/win or run with the ball. I also think their ability to win aerial ball is amateur.

but, he has stopped a rot that was getting totally out of hand.....and I fully accept we can't be grateful for that forever.

The thing for me is......Who is this man to right all the wrongs of Steve Bruce.....We can't all simply enter a whingeing contest with no end product.

Its simply not a question of ridding ourselves of Steve Bruce, that is the dilettante nature of all this.......it's who is the man to put it all right.

Edited October 16, 2017 by TRO

[TRO]

57 minutes ago, VILLAMARV said:

Bruce is walking the tightrope for me. Straight on to another huge game against Fulham. A win would go some way to proving we can mix it with the better teams in this league - which is by far and away the biggest question mark right now for me. A draw and it's another tentative step along the tightrope. Lose it and he may well need to go to the sty and win to keep his job. Still very fine margins at the moment and all of our own making. There's still work to be done to make up for the poor start.

I am glad we have some width and some competition for places when everyone is fit out wide but in the middle our central midfield is still our weakness. Those looking in will see Hourihane's return and think we're ok but we know different. I think the 'Lampard of the Championship' is a good comparison. Not that I'm knocking Hourihane, but for me our problems in the middle - obviously highlighted on the weekend - are that we lack anyone with any real on the ball ability and someone who - like Neves did - can run the show. Still never replaced Milner in that regard. The problem that leaves us with is having to pack the midfield with bodies and how we generally struggle to create much with 1 up top.

The way we tail off in the second half of games is still worrying, whatever is said about improvements in fitness. Personally I feel we spend so much time chasing the game that we're up against it from the start "they can't keep this up for 90 minutes Cotton" although in fairness it's been a high pressing game that's beaten the lower teams. Our away form needs to improve. 7 points from 6 games on the road so far (W2-D1-L3). It will be easier to point at the opposition and make a case for us playing decent teams away from home if we prove it's an anomaly and only then. At the moment we've lost 50% of our away games, plain and simple. And like I said earlier, we need to beat some of the top half teams. Fulham, Preston away and Sheffield Wednesday all up in the next 5 games Ipswich, Leeds and Sheffield Utd in the bunch after them. At the moment our record is (W1-D2-L2) and the solitary win against Norwich looks a little lonely.

Of the remaining 11 games in the first half of the season I'd say Preston and Leeds away and Sheffield Utd at home look tricky as does the Fulham game imo but hardly unwinnable any of them. 33 points on offer. he needs 27 of them to catch up to any mystical 2 point average by then.

Interesting read.

There are a couple of points for me.

• If we have promotion aspirations the manager should not be going from game to game to keep his job.....but he is and I can understand why.
• secondly too many of our players do not dominate their opposite number often enough and subsequently we are looking for systems ( i.e more players in that dep't) to bail us out.....systems give you an edge, an advantage, but they won't do the job for you.

I accept your observation of the central 2 I think it has been a problem for some time despite our efforts to cure it......I think we need players a bit more complete than we have to fill those roles.

Edited October 16, 2017 by TRO

[Vive_La_Villa]

29 minutes ago, TRO said:

We had no midfield because the 4 that was in there failed to make an impact, they were shabby, slow and lethargic as opposed to Wolves  being sharp and purposeful.....and subsequently that impacted on the 2 up front ,Thats over half our team below par.....add that to a poor game from Elmo and its a wonder we kept it to 2

Its like someone else wrote.....We don't need to emulate Wolves , We need to play like a better Aston Villa.

Too many players off colour on the same night.

While I agree we played poorly I think they are a much better team that us and we should have accepted that and prepared accordingly. It doesn't look we did any sort of research on them which is very disappointing.

[Villarocker]

46 minutes ago, TrentVilla said:

I think I’m right in saying that in the year Bruce has been in charge of the club we haven’t spent 1 day in the top 6. 

Not all his fault, granted given where we were when he arrived but fair to say I don’t think anyone would have predicted the above let alone thought it would be acceptable.

Whatever the merits or otherwise of his appointment, whatever it’s logic and irrespective of how widely welcomed he was his appointment to date hasn’t worked.

Some we argue we are on track, we are improving and that the results over the last 10 games support that. Others will say the improvement is marginal, the football not good enough to mount a challenge and too many excuses are made.

Personally I fall into the later camp. I don’t think his performance over the last 12 months has been good enough, I don’t think the performances are good enough to take us up and I think with every passing month he looks more and more yesterdays man like some of the players he signed.

I accept the logic of those saying we don’t need another change, I don’t think anyone wants one, and I accept the charge that we would be mocked for making one.

But in the support of those views let’s not pretend Bruce has done or is doing a good job, let’s not kid ourselves real tangible progress is being made even if we have enjoyed a good run of results prior to Wolves.

Automatic promotion is gone in my opinion, we aren’t good enough and aren’t attacking enough to win the sort of number of games required to achieve it.

So now it’s about trying to get into the dreaded play offs. Was that really people’s hope or expectation in the summer?

We have absolutely no devine right to achieve it but I think we had reason to expect a challenge for automatic promotion.

Yes, I know how many games have been played, how many remain and what the current points difference is before people reply with reference to them. I make this post in full awareness of them. 

As I posted a few pages back, look at the wins the theee promoted sides achieved last season. Can you really see us matching that sort of win ratio?

So for the Dr the questions now are, is Bruce the best bet for reaching the play offs? Can I afford to make a change of manager and support him in the market to improve things in line with FFP?

My concern is that the answer to both those questions is no. But that the answer to the second question impacts what is done about the negative answer to the first.

I’m just not sure we can afford to get rid of Bruce and other staff, replace them and give them new players to change things and comply with FFP.

I think we’ve gambled twice already and now we are left holding onto the seat and hoping the ride ends how we wish.

So as much as I think Bruce is doing a poor job, as much as I’d like to see a change, as much as I think his football philosophy is a decade old I fear we are stuck with him.

So we best hope we keep beating the dross in this league and hope we scrape enough points from the rest to get into that top 6 and get promoted.

One thing is for sure, if we do I will still think a change of manager is needed if we are really going to take the club forward.

 

Cracking post with some very good points in it. 

That part towards the end scares me though. I can't see Villa finishing in the top two. Scraping into the next four places will leave us with three games to go up against top 6 sides and, to be honest, I'm not looking at the prospect of that with any confidence of us winning. Until we start beating the better teams in this league my belief of us going up this season will be remain almost non existent. 

[Dr_Pangloss]

Bruce's reign here has been a disaster.

[TRO]

22 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

While I agree we played poorly I think they are a much better team that us and we should have accepted that and prepared accordingly. It doesn't look we did any sort of research on them which is very disappointing.

Look, I am not suggesting you are wrong and it may weel be in the cold light of day they have better individual players than us, but.

If you let them play, they will......We did and we got spanked.

conversely, when we had the ball and wanted to play, they closed us down and denied us space, which negated any intentions we had.

I saw players of ours way off form on the night, why I have no idea, except its not the first time after an International break ,Hmmmm.

I am not diminishing what you say about research, but its action we want not technical theories.

Its a simple game.....look at the turn around Blues got against Cardiff.....The turnaround Burton got against Bristol City

We don't need Stephen Hawking......We need heart and conviction.They have the talent they need to use it.

Edited October 16, 2017 by TRO

[Vive_La_Villa]

1 minute ago, TRO said:

Look, I am not suggesting you are wrong and it may weel be in the cold light of day they have better individual players than us, but.

If you let them play, they will......We did and we got spanked.

conversely, when we had the ball and wanted to play, they closed us down and denied us space, which negated any intentions we had.

I saw players of ours way off form on the night, why I have no idea, except its not the first time after an International break ,Hmmmm.

I am not diminishing what you say about research, but its action we want not technical theories.

Its a simple game.....look at the turn around Blues got against Cardiff.....The turnaround Burton got against Bristol City

We don't need Stephen Hawking......We need heart and conviction.They have the talent they need to use it.

I'm not even talking Pep style master plan tactics. I'm talking common sense based on the opposition! Bruce said he doesn't do tactics. That's fine when you have the much better players and team. However when you go up against far superior players you look like amateurs. Which is how we looked Saturday.

Ok let's talk about them not using their talent. How many times have we had this same conversation over the past year? I've lost count. So there are two conclusions. 1) the players aren't as good as we think they are. 2) Bruce can't get the best out of them. 

Personally I think the problem is a combination of both. 

[TRO]

4 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I'm not even talking Pep style master plan tactics. I'm talking common sense based on the opposition! Bruce said he doesn't do tactics. That's fine when you have the much better players and team. However when you go up against far superior players you look like amateurs. Which is how we looked Saturday.

Ok let's talk about them not using their talent. How many times have we had this same conversation over the past year? I've lost count. So there are two conclusions. 1) the players aren't as good as we think they are. 2) Bruce can't get the best out of them. 

Personally I think the problem is a combination of both. 

and I am inclined to agree.