Steve Bruce

[TRO]

6 hours ago, villan_007 said:

I've read some really great Bruce in posts over the previous few pages. Backed up with facts and good reasons. It's made me stay in the Bruce in camp.

I haven't seen any Bruce out posts that have made me question my decision.

Most of the Bruce out posts make me picture a moody five yr old with his arms folded saying...I want pretty football.

At least Grasshopper has laid his stall out here and said what he'd like to have seen. But I must say I'm so glad it hasn't happened and I hope the club stick to their guns.

BRUCE IN

The fascination for me is that Bruce himself is not happy with what he is seeing, so us the fans are not alone.

Tony Xia / Keith Wyness must see all his after match comments and he will have to explain them I guess.

i was interested to read an article from a very prominent ex Manchester Utd player, who was talking about "scapegoating" managers.....he said "in the the 18 years i had played for Utd, not once did I blame the manager for our defeats.....we kick the ball, its down to us the players"

Of course its folly to suggest the manager has no responsibility, but equally i think at times they are scapegoated too much......Too much is laid at their table.

......as the old saying goes...."you can take a horse to water, but you can't make him drink"

those sayings were derived for a reason.

[TheStagMan]

22 hours ago, hippo said:

Theres only one guy to blame for non promotion this season - and it isn't Bruce ! 

Is it Gabby?

I think it's Gabby.

It's Gabby isn't It?

[srsmithusa]

7 hours ago, villan_007 said:

I've read some really great Bruce in posts over the previous few pages. Backed up with facts and good reasons. It's made me stay in the Bruce in camp.

I haven't seen any Bruce out posts that have made me question my decision.

Most of the Bruce out posts make me picture a moody five yr old with his arms folded saying...I want pretty football.

At least Grasshopper has laid his stall out here and said what he'd like to have seen. But I must say I'm so glad it hasn't happened and I hope the club stick to their guns.

BRUCE IN

 

6 hours ago, DaveAV1 said:

I like to base my opinion on what I watch at Villa Park and televised games, not what I read second hand, even though the views of my esteemed fellow VTers are as fascinating as they are insightful. The main reason I am not enamoured with Mr Bruce isn't that the football isn't pretty, but that it isn't consistently  effective. Winning always glosses over the performance and so on a good run hope obviously grows. However my problem is that in the cold light of day, after either disappointment or joy, when I look back on the game, leaving aside the result, I see no difference in the way in which we have played between each individual game. 

What im trying to say is, that we play every game in the same manner, which you're right ain't pretty, and the performance has no real bearing on the result. A moment of good play, generally by Kodjia, or a slip up somewhere changes the result, rather than the actual game plan. If that continues next season then we'll win some, lose some amd draw some which will result in a similar league position as this season which I think you'll agree, isn't good enough. 

In my 40+ years of watching The Villa, I don't think I've ever seen us play pretty football. But I've seen us play exciting attacking football under the likes of Ron Saunders, BFR and Sir Brian and I've seen us play pragmatic effective football under Graham Taylor and MON. All of those managers had a game plan of how to win the game. Sometimes you thought we'd played well after a game and sometimes poorly and the performance was generally reflected in the result. Under Steve Bruce the performance is always uninspiring and negative and the resulting score line as predictable as the toss of a coin.

Bruce out! (If we have a clear plan as to what we do next and with who).

 

P.S. I assume the great posts you've read in support of SB were laden with facts about his experiences and achievements at other clubs that lead the poster to believe he needs more than 35 games and a preseason to put things right. His previous achievements are indeed facts, how much time he needs is opinion. 

In his time here he has averaged 1.5 points per game and it is a fact that if we replicate that next season we will not be promoted. It's my opinion that 35 games is enough time to show he is developing a plan for how we intend to play next season and I believe that he won't achieve our main goal of getting out of this division. In an upward direction!

 

Dave, I'm glad you responded.  Being 5, I was trying to figure out some way to work "it takes one to know one" into my reply.

[Villan4Life]

I still think we should least let Calderwood go this summer and maybe bring in Mike Phelan and see if him and Bruce can do similar to what was achieved at Hull.

[DaveAV1]

2 hours ago, srsmithusa said:

 

 

Dave, I'm glad you responded.  Being 5, I was trying to figure out some way to work "it takes one to know one" into my reply.

Always a pleasure young man 

[srsmithusa]

26 minutes ago, Villan4Life said:

I still think we should least let Calderwood go this summer and maybe bring in Mike Phelan and see if him and Bruce can do similar to what was achieved at Hull.

This makes good sense to me.  

I'm on the camp that he has had a window and 35 matches to "fix" what's wrong with us and he, by his own admission, has not done so.  My prognostication is that another window and a preseason won't change that.   But I also think the club will stick with him till he succeeds or we are still "not good enough" in October.  My fear is that we cripple the next guy if we do that.

I would at least feel more hope of Bruce turning it around, if there was a new coaching setup.

[DaveAV1]

3 hours ago, TRO said:

The fascination for me is that Bruce himself is not happy with what he is seeing, so us the fans are not alone.

Tony Xia / Keith Wyness must see all his after match comments and he will have to explain them I guess.

i was interested to read an article from a very prominent ex Manchester Utd player, who was talking about "scapegoating" managers.....he said "in the the 18 years i had played for Utd, not once did I blame the manager for our defeats.....we kick the ball, its down to us the players"

Of course its folly to suggest the manager has no responsibility, but equally i think at times they are scapegoated too much......Too much is laid at their table.

......as the old saying goes...."you can take a horse to water, but you can't make him drink"

those sayings were derived for a reason.

As an excuse?

[Lichfield Dean]

Anybody heard these rumours that Steve Bruce was in an altercation with players? I have no idea if there is any basis in it, but it seems fairly widespread.

Edit: guess it may be related to the injury on his head, so quite possibly it is all completely made up

Edited May 5, 2017 by Lichfield Dean

[sheepyvillian]

3 hours ago, TRO said:

The fascination for me is that Bruce himself is not happy with what he is seeing, so us the fans are not alone.

Tony Xia / Keith Wyness must see all his after match comments and he will have to explain them I guess.

i was interested to read an article from a very prominent ex Manchester Utd player, who was talking about "scapegoating" managers.....he said "in the the 18 years i had played for Utd, not once did I blame the manager for our defeats.....we kick the ball, its down to us the players"

Of course its folly to suggest the manager has no responsibility, but equally i think at times they are scapegoated too much......Too much is laid at their table.

......as the old saying goes...."you can take a horse to water, but you can't make him drink"

those sayings were derived for a reason.

Especially if the water tastes like piss .

[sheepyvillian]

On 2017-5-4 at 14:33, hippo said:

Theres only one guy to blame for non promotion this season - and it isn't Bruce ! 

Ivo Stass ?

[bannedfromHandV]

Serious question - is it the managers fault (any manager) when supposed professional players cannot pass the ball to a teammate 5 yards away without misdirecting it?

 

Is it the managers fault (any manager) when players fail to see teammates in space and/or making good runs in behind a defence?

 

Is it the managers fault when 80%+ of the personnel at his disposal do not give a shit about the club, the shirt or the game?

 

I was at Blackburn, hands down its up there with the very worst performances I've ever witnessed in my lifetime of supporting this club and it would be really easy to point fingers at the 1 (manager) instead of the 11 (players) but we've changed manager, multiple times in the last few years alone, we've brought in Champions League winning Managers, Championship winning Managers, Managers from the UK and Managers from abroad - I defy anyone to tell me that none of those people are capable at our level.

 

It is the players, it's the entire squad and the first eleven, it's endemic throughout the club, even the youngsters we bring through seem to be gobby little shits who think they're gods gift before they've even kicked a first team ball.

 

We need to cultivate an identity and sign players against that criteria, like Southampton and others have done, we don't need to spend £50M every window on known names.

 

With all due respect you're just taking the easy road in wanting the manager sacked, we've been going round (literally) in a circle over the past 5 odd years on this forum, 'the managers shit let's sack the manager!', 'no let's give him time it's not his fault', 'nah **** that I want him sacked!' -Manager gets sacked- 'yes he's gone', 'oooo wonder who we'll get next' -underwhelming appointment- 'okay let's see how he pans out' -3 matches later- 'the managers shit let's sack the manager' ........and repeat, for five years.

 

Just a crazy thought but maybe, just maybe, it's not the Manager that's the problem?

Edited May 5, 2017 by bannedfromHandV

[romavillan]

11 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

Serious question - is it the managers fault (any manager) when supposed professional players cannot pass the ball to a teammate 5 yards away without misdirecting it?

 

Is it the managers fault (any manager) when players fail to see teammates in space and/or making good runs in behind a defence?

 

Is it the managers fault when 80%+ of the personnel at his disposal do not give a shit about the club, the shirt or the game?

 

I was at Blackburn, hands down its up there with the very worst performances I've ever witnessed in my lifetime of supporting this club and it would be really easy to point fingers at the 1 (manager) instead of the 11 (players) but we've changed manager, multiple times in the last few years alone, we've brought in Champions League winning Managers, Championship winning Managers, Managers from the UK and Managers from abroad - I defy anyone to tell me that none of those people are capable at our level.

 

It is the players, it's the entire squad and the first eleven, it's endemic throughout the club, even the youngsters we bring through seem to be gobby little shits who think they're gods gift before they've even kicked a first team ball.

 

We need to cultivate an identity and sign players against that criteria, like Southampton and others have done, we don't need to spend £50M every window on known names.

 

With all due respect you're just taking the easy road in wanting the manager sacked, we've been going round (literally) in a circle over the past 5 odd years on this forum, 'the managers shit let's sack the manager!', 'no let's give him time it's not his fault', 'nah **** that I want him sacked!' -Manager gets sacked- 'yes he's gone', 'oooo wonder who we'll get next' -underwhelming appointment- 'okay let's see how he pans out' -3 matches later- 'the managers shit let's sack the manager' ........and repeat, for five years.

 

Just a crazy thought but maybe, just maybe, it's not the Manager that's the problem?

I think we are in the situation where we either need a standout manager to kick the club up the arse and micromanage everything from the youth to the first team, sort out some new coaches and get everyone pulling in the same direction, or, we need to separate these responsibilities. So hire a Director of Football, who then assembles coaching staff from the first team head coach down to the youth level coaching teams. All hired with a plan in mind of how we want to play. He also hires our hires the head scout, with the same criteria in mind who in turn hires his scouting network and looks for players to fit the system and ethic. 

This is clearly going to be a long job, for me it's too big to lay all of it at Bruce's door as well. I'd like for us to diminish the scope of the Manager's role at AVFC, to that of the first team coach, divide the old responsibilities out between a team of specialists with narrower focus under a DOF. It will make finding a good first team coach much easier when in october we're in the bottom half and playing like shit

It's not going to happen though so I'm hoping that Bruce, Tony and Wyness already have a plan for the summer and are quick out of the blocks to get everything done in time for a long and productive pre-season before we, um, "go again".

[TRO]

13 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

Serious question - is it the managers fault (any manager) when supposed professional players cannot pass the ball to a teammate 5 yards away without misdirecting it?

 

Is it the managers fault (any manager) when players fail to see teammates in space and/or making good runs in behind a defence?

 

Is it the managers fault when 80%+ of the personnel at his disposal do not give a shit about the club, the shirt or the game?

 

I was at Blackburn, hands down its up there with the very worst performances I've ever witnessed in my lifetime of supporting this club and it would be really easy to point fingers at the 1 (manager) instead of the 11 (players) but we've changed manager, multiple times in the last few years alone, we've brought in Champions League winning Managers, Championship winning Managers, Managers from the UK and Managers from abroad - I defy anyone to tell me that none of those people are capable at our level.

 

It is the players, it's the entire squad and the first eleven, it's endemic throughout the club, even the youngsters we bring through seem to be gobby little shits who think they're gods gift before they've even kicked a first team ball.

 

We need to cultivate an identity and sign players against that criteria, like Southampton and others have done, we don't need to spend £50M every window on known names.

 

With all due respect you're just taking the easy road in wanting the manager sacked, we've been going round (literally) in a circle over the past 5 odd years on this forum, 'the managers shit let's sack the manager!', 'no let's give him time it's not his fault', 'nah **** that I want him sacked!' -Manager gets sacked- 'yes he's gone', 'oooo wonder who we'll get next' -underwhelming appointment- 'okay let's see how he pans out' -3 matches later- 'the managers shit let's sack the manager' ........and repeat, for five years.

 

Just a crazy thought but maybe, just maybe, it's not the Manager that's the problem?

That to me, is a brilliant post.....and above all it makes you think.....if you have an open mind that is.

I think the points you make are very, very apt......There are certain things I see,like you have mentioned,  that are not manager in a million years, any manager not just Steve Bruce.....We assume they( managers) sign them, so they must take responsibility for their character, but do they REALLY know their character until they see it at close quarters?

I don't profess to know the answer, but I want a manager thats just left alone to get on with this toxic job and introduce a mindset that is conducive with good football and assemble a bunch of players that resemble the managers doctrine of what he learnt and mirrored  at Old Trafford.

Don't try and pick the apples before the apple tree has grown......He is in the middle of a very tricky rebuild IMO, let him finish it off. The judgment is much too early IMV.

 

 

[srsmithusa]

34 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

Serious question - is it the managers fault (any manager) when supposed professional players cannot pass the ball to a teammate 5 yards away without misdirecting it?

 

Is it the managers fault (any manager) when players fail to see teammates in space and/or making good runs in behind a defence?

 

Is it the managers fault when 80%+ of the personnel at his disposal do not give a shit about the club, the shirt or the game?

 

I was at Blackburn, hands down its up there with the very worst performances I've ever witnessed in my lifetime of supporting this club and it would be really easy to point fingers at the 1 (manager) instead of the 11 (players) but we've changed manager, multiple times in the last few years alone, we've brought in Champions League winning Managers, Championship winning Managers, Managers from the UK and Managers from abroad - I defy anyone to tell me that none of those people are capable at our level.

 

It is the players, it's the entire squad and the first eleven, it's endemic throughout the club, even the youngsters we bring through seem to be gobby little shits who think they're gods gift before they've even kicked a first team ball.

 

We need to cultivate an identity and sign players against that criteria, like Southampton and others have done, we don't need to spend £50M every window on known names.

 

With all due respect you're just taking the easy road in wanting the manager sacked, we've been going round (literally) in a circle over the past 5 odd years on this forum, 'the managers shit let's sack the manager!', 'no let's give him time it's not his fault', 'nah **** that I want him sacked!' -Manager gets sacked- 'yes he's gone', 'oooo wonder who we'll get next' -underwhelming appointment- 'okay let's see how he pans out' -3 matches later- 'the managers shit let's sack the manager' ........and repeat, for five years.

 

Just a crazy thought but maybe, just maybe, it's not the Manager that's the problem?

Is it the managers fault when the players have no comprehensive game plan explained in a way they can apply it, and practiced in meaningful drills, to know WHERE to move and WHERE to expect a teammate for a pass   The answer to that one is "yes"   and MAY explain most of those you list.

Except for the one where you assert that the players do not give a shit.  But I think if we interviewed them each, they would deny that one.

FWIW, I don't think Bruce is the problem (his promotion record supports that) and I don't think the players are poor quality (their stats at other clubs support that).   I think the culture of the club is the problem (our multi-year decline across multiple personnel supports that) and Bruce is not doing the things necessary to address it.(our performances on the field support that).

[TRO]

1 hour ago, srsmithusa said:

This makes good sense to me.  

I'm on the camp that he has had a window and 35 matches to "fix" what's wrong with us and he, by his own admission, has not done so.  My prognostication is that another window and a preseason won't change that.   But I also think the club will stick with him till he succeeds or we are still "not good enough" in October.  My fear is that we cripple the next guy if we do that.

I would at least feel more hope of Bruce turning it around, if there was a new coaching setup.

It makes no sense to me.

lets deal with the dichotomy....Fact or opinion

• How long does this take to fix.....opinion.
• How does it get fixed, coaching alone or change of personnel or both....opinion
• Another window and a preseason won't fix it....Opinion.
• Will the club stick with him?....He's in the job....Fact
• We will cripple the next guy, will there be a next guy....opinion
• The coaching setup is not good enough, yet we have nothing to substantiate that other than what we see....opinion.

The Facts 

• We have a manager that is working with a contract and a job that is incomplete....fact
• He has a previous record of successfully acheiving what he is the middle of now....fact
• There has been no overtures from the club to suggest his job is in jeopardy.....Fact
• The complaints regarding the playing performances from most fans is shared by the manager....Fact.
• He has had a disruptive season to contend losing his 2 influential players at crucial times, to hamper his development....Fact
• There is absolutely no indication from the press, pundits or ex players or managers that suggest he should go after this season....Fact

Lets be clear, no one has the monopoly of whats right or wrong hear, but is it too much to ask, to allow the bloke to be allowed to get on with the job and until its is blindly obvious we have given him the financial support and the windows to do it ,that and it has not happened.....Is it reasonable to criticise to the extent some of us have.....WHEN THE JOB IS INCOMPLETE.

The job is difficult enough he needs nourishment not punishment.

[srsmithusa]

A managers job is NEVER complete.  Ask Aresene if he has work to do?

But there comes a time when you need to change.   (How long that time is, is OPINION)

Bruce has already been given A LOT more time and financial support in a window, than several other of our recent managers were given.

 

[TRO]

16 minutes ago, srsmithusa said:

Is it the managers fault when the players have no comprehensive game plan explained in a way they can apply it, and practiced in meaningful drills, to know WHERE to move and WHERE to expect a teammate for a pass   The answer to that one is "yes"   and MAY explain most of those you list.

Except for the one where you assert that the players do not give a shit.  But I think if we interviewed them each, they would deny that one.

FWIW, I don't think Bruce is the problem (his promotion record supports that) and I don't think the players are poor quality (their stats at other clubs support that).   I think the culture of the club is the problem (our multi-year decline across multiple personnel supports that) and Bruce is not doing the things necessary to address it.(our performances on the field support that).

some of the  players may not individually be bad.....but some may be hoodwinking us, we think they are ok, but are not......The team is not right IMO and the players are not balanced in many ways. The culture at the club could be wrong, but I cannot be sure of that, because I simply don't know.

The managers is responsible for set/up and tactics.....but if the personnel are simply not there to make that balance you have to wait until they are. I see things from the players, i find hard to blame tactics and set up ALL OF THE TIME......sometimes maybe.....but not all of the time.

They have to take responsibility for their :

• Desire
• Basic skills
• Energy
• Fitness
• Character/Approach
• Application

I am not saying that the manager is blameless, but when so many things are wrong it is difficult to pin point the problem, because there are so many......I am not saying its like sorting out the NHS , but after years of shit everywhere, forgive me for being tempted.

This job will "fry the brain" of many managers....The culture, you could have a point , but that will take much time to change.

[heffoman]

57 minutes ago, TRO said:

That to me, is a brilliant post.....and above all it makes you think.....if you have an open mind that is.

I think the points you make are very, very apt......There are certain things I see,like you have mentioned,  that are not manager in a million years, any manager not just Steve Bruce.....We assume they( managers) sign them, so they must take responsibility for their character, but do they REALLY know their character until they see it at close quarters?

I don't profess to know the answer, but I want a manager thats just left alone to get on with this toxic job and introduce a mindset that is conducive with good football and assemble a bunch of players that resemble the managers doctrine of what he learnt and mirrored  at Old Trafford.

Don't try and pick the apples before the apple tree has grown......He is in the middle of a very tricky rebuild IMO, let him finish it off. The judgment is much too early IMV.

 

 

Have a look at Chelsea last year and this year. 

[TRO]

6 minutes ago, srsmithusa said:

A managers job is NEVER complete.  Ask Aresene if he has work to do?

But there comes a time when you need to change.   (How long that time is, is OPINION)

Bruce has already been given A LOT more time and financial support in a window, than several other of our recent managers were given.

 

All my opinions of course....just a caveat.....not facts.

Look, I am not being funny here......but none of us, including me have an idea the extent of the mire that the last administration left behind.....No one is going to clear it up quickly, even Mourinho hypothetically, would need time......more than some of us are prepared to give.

There is no Harry Potter............ it took us years to get like this and it will takes years to get out of it......Sorry.

When we went down the team ( IMO ) was in the main fit for Div 1.....many thought we would cope admirably in the championship, Mistake.

If I am being brutally honest.....The managers after Lambert had the Himalayas to climb.....some say they wasn't up to it.....not that size of task no they wasn't. I have an air of sympathy with them....despite not being my choices.....They were just scapegoats to a sickening disease that had engulfed us.

I think even Lambert himself was treading water for so long due in the main to the inept people he had around him, he was engulfed in incompetence.....He was just playing lip service to everything.

It wasn't just broken, it was smashed to smithereens.

I don't think Tony Xia is a fool despite recruiting RDM .....but I think even he underestimated the size of this.

We have been a club that has existed for so long, scapegoating managers and masking over the insipid attitude that has allowed free loaders to flourish and good folk to stay silent.

Steve Bruce needs to stay and sanitise this club, (football wise) once and for all and allow the breathing space for good values to breed.

[TRO]

5 minutes ago, heffoman said:

Have a look at Chelsea last year and this year. 

meaning what exactly?

I could say look at United...whats the point?

Edited May 5, 2017 by TRO