Stevo985 Posted May 3, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted May 3, 2017 5 minutes ago, TrentVilla said: So I agree I don't think Bruce is instructing them to play how they are but and this is the crux for me, I'm not sure he is able to instruct them to play the way we probably need to. Yes, I absolutely agree, which was my point. I guess my only disagreement would be I do think he is able to instruct them to play the way we need to, even though he hasn't done it yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeyAnty Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 53 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: So you really think Bruce is watching games like Blackburn, thinking "Yes, this is how I want us to play" and then speaking to the media and absolutely slating the way we play? Really? Because that's the point I was arguing. Also, players hoofing the ball rarely come from specific instructions to hoof it. It's usually a lack of options and an inability to be calm under whatever pressure they're under. I'm not absolving Bruce of blame here. In fact I'm specifically blaming him. What I'm arguing against is the original suggestion that we are currently playing how he wants us to play, regardless of results, and despite the manager specifically saying on many occasions that he's not happy with how we played I agree, he wouldn't want us to play long balls but the way he has set the team up there is pretty much no alternative that is going to happen. We sit so deep, have no width, when a player like Hutton gets the ball, who is he going to pass it to? There is only one out come as I mentioned, there will be no space nor width to complete the pass. So easy to defend against. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dounavilla Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 (edited) So the players are ignoring his instructions or he has not instructed them yet ? Or maybe he has instructed them, they understand it , but they can't follow out these instructions because he plays the wrong tactics with the wrong players? Worrying. Edited May 3, 2017 by dounavilla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 3 hours ago, Stevo985 said: So you really think Bruce is watching games like Blackburn, thinking "Yes, this is how I want us to play" and then speaking to the media and absolutely slating the way we play? Really? Because that's the point I was arguing. Also, players hoofing the ball rarely come from specific instructions to hoof it. It's usually a lack of options and an inability to be calm under whatever pressure they're under. I'm not absolving Bruce of blame here. In fact I'm specifically blaming him. What I'm arguing against is the original suggestion that we are currently playing how he wants us to play, regardless of results, and despite the manager specifically saying on many occasions that he's not happy with how we played I'm not really sure, I think both scenarios are very strange and don't make much sense which is why I responded to your initial post that suggested only one didn't make sense. I think Bruce clearly wants his team to play defensively. I think he wants us to be direct and he's happy to have our forward players isolated for the extra protection we get in midfield. I think clearly he's not currently interested in a progressive attacking style of football. I also think at the same time he probably does want us to keep the ball better and improve but that he's completely incapable of implementing this. If he wasn't, then I don't know why we haven't seen the smallest signs of improvement in this regard, after nearly a premier league season length of time. For me, his negative style combined with not being able to coach and implement improvements into it mean we are completely wasting our time with him. It's not going to get this team promoted. It may have worked with different squads and different scenarios in the past but quite clearly it's having no impact at this club. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Could Be Rotterdam Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 I always wonder what questions the players ask before joining a club. I dont believe for a second that Hourihane and Lansbury were told they would be asked to play in the roles they are in now. As a player, surely you go to a club where your strengths will be utilised and your weaknesses not called upon. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted May 3, 2017 Author Share Posted May 3, 2017 16 hours ago, USA_Villa said: I know I'm repeating myself again, but here's what I'm struggling with and why I believe Bruce needs to go We are a really bad team playing really bad football. Although, when was the last time you heard someone say they want to play like a Steve Bruce team? Don't hear any complaints with the likes of palace and west brom. Style of football doesnt matter as long as we are progressing which we are not at the mo Does anyone remember our form in January and February? We had one of the longest losing streaks in the clubs history Hmm you must have missed the whole of last season then ! 16 hours ago, USA_Villa said: We are likely to finish 12th. Bruce said his target was top 10. Well Stevie, you failed. You gave yourself the heady target of finishing on the top 10, and you couldn't even do 10th-12th doesn't make a difference 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 51 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: Hmm you must have missed the whole of last season then ! 10th-12th doesn't make a difference Setting a target and failing to meet it should matter. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PieFacE Posted May 3, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted May 3, 2017 I'm really unsure on where I stand on Bruce. Since the moment it was obvious we weren't going to be in the play-offs, Bruce has had a real opportunity to start preperations for next year. We've had a great chance to throw caution to the wind and go out to score loads of goals, or at least, attempt to play some half decent football. We've done anything but, it's been shocking, and I refuse to believe that this group of footballers cannot play any better. We play in such a dire and dismal manner, the players must feel negative about it before they even walk out on the pitch. With all that in mind though, can we really afford to change the manager again? Or is it more of a case that can we afford to not change the manager next season? Little things like dropping Hourihane for Bacuna....... why? Hourihane was starting to get into it and getting in some decent goal scoring situations. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briggaman Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 I'm still backing Bruce. The football we have been playing under him hasn't been good enough at times, yet our form has improved under him. He has a great records of getting teams promoted at this level so I'm willing to give him until midway through next season. We should be pushing for promotion from the start next season. If it comes to November/December and we aren't up near the top end of the table then I think Xia will need to reassess the situation. Sacking Bruce at that period in time would mean we would effectively be starting from scratch again but would probably be a risk worth taking at that point. I think Bruce has earned more time at the moment and has the previous record to show he is more than capable of getting us promoted. He will now have a full preseason ahead of him with the squad and the squad will be of his own making, so there can be no excuses next season. This is a results game and I think (and hope) Bruce can get us promoted. Only time will tell. If we do get up under Bruce then the managerial situation will need to be looked at again in my opinion. I'm not convinced he would be the right man to take us forward in the Premier League, although he would deserve a change to prove otherwise if he gets us promoted. Let's worry about getting promoted first anyway... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted May 3, 2017 Author Share Posted May 3, 2017 17 minutes ago, DCJonah said: Setting a target and failing to meet it should matter. If you say for example you goal is finishing in play offs and finishwas say 8th that's a failure. But saying top 10 and finishing 12th isn't exactly a complete failure. Could we have been better? Absolutely But I certainly will be expecting better next season. Even with the kodjia injury it's happened now which is better than had it happen 2-3 games in the season so we can work on it during the summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted May 3, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted May 3, 2017 1 hour ago, DCJonah said: I also think at the same time he probably does want us to keep the ball better and improve but that he's completely incapable of implementing this. If he wasn't, then I don't know why we haven't seen the smallest signs of improvement in this regard, after nearly a premier league season length of time. I agree. And this was my point. My only difference with your opinion is I think he is capable of it, we just haven't seen it yet (which I acknowledge is a legitimate concern) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheStagMan Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 8 minutes ago, briggaman said: Let's worry about getting promoted first anyway... Oh i am worrying about it.... big time 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted May 3, 2017 Moderator Share Posted May 3, 2017 22 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: My only difference with your opinion is I think he is capable of it, we just haven't seen it yet (which I acknowledge is a legitimate concern) I think that's largely the main difference of opinion between those in favour of Bruce and those who are not. Everyone kind of agrees that what we're being served up at the moment is not good enough. Even Bruce agrees with that ffs. Where the disagreement lies is in whether you believe he'll get it sorted or not. Now I believe that he will, and yes I believe that because he has done it so often in the past, and while that's no guarantee that he'll get it sorted again, it does at least show that he's capable of it. That I'm not basing my opinion on blind faith, but on his record. But as has also been said by those in favour of Bruce. The support is not open-ended. We must go up next season. We can not afford to be languishing with the also-rans come October, still trying to string a few passes together. I fully expect that if we are not one of the front runners early on next season then he will rightly come under serious pressure. He knows that too and has said as much. And I wouldn't have it any other way. We all want what's best for Aston Villa Football Club. I currently think that's Steve Bruce but as soon as I don't think that, then I'll want him out too. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 22 minutes ago, BOF said: But as has also been said by those in favour of Bruce. The support is not open-ended. We must go up next season. We can not afford to be languishing with the also-rans come October, still trying to string a few passes together. I fully expect that if we are not one of the front runners early on next season then he will rightly come under serious pressure. He knows that too and has said as much. And I wouldn't have it any other way. We all want what's best for Aston Villa Football Club. I currently think that's Steve Bruce but as soon as I don't think that, then I'll want him out too. Agree with that post completely. Out of interest, what do you think would constitute not being a front runner early on? Or, rather, to what degree would you ascertain failure? If we're in 10th place but 6 points off 2nd after, say, 12 games... stick or twist? Would it depend on how well we're playing generally or purely results driven? All dem questions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted May 3, 2017 Moderator Share Posted May 3, 2017 2 minutes ago, bobzy said: Agree with that post completely. Out of interest, what do you think would constitute not being a front runner early on? Or, rather, to what degree would you ascertain failure? If we're in 10th place but 6 points off 2nd after, say, 12 games... stick or twist? Would it depend on how well we're playing generally or purely results driven? All dem questions TBH I don't put a hard and fast figure on it. I'll know if I'm happy with where we are when I look at the table. It's not a position or a points total. It's everything factored in. Results, who we've played, how we've played, who's missing/injured etc. We'll 'know' if we've started the season as a front-runner fairly quickly and I'll judge from that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted May 3, 2017 Moderator Share Posted May 3, 2017 And just to clarify why my post isn't a get out of jail free card for me or for Bruce. Here's the season progression for 3 'front runners' this season. It took them a while to find their stride. Even Brighton took 9 games (end of September, start of October) to get themselves into a steady playoff position. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted May 3, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted May 3, 2017 57 minutes ago, BOF said: I think that's largely the main difference of opinion between those in favour of Bruce and those who are not. Everyone kind of agrees that what we're being served up at the moment is not good enough. Even Bruce agrees with that ffs. Where the disagreement lies is in whether you believe he'll get it sorted or not. Now I believe that he will, and yes I believe that because he has done it so often in the past, and while that's no guarantee that he'll get it sorted again, it does at least show that he's capable of it. That I'm not basing my opinion on blind faith, but on his record. But as has also been said by those in favour of Bruce. The support is not open-ended. We must go up next season. We can not afford to be languishing with the also-rans come October, still trying to string a few passes together. I fully expect that if we are not one of the front runners early on next season then he will rightly come under serious pressure. He knows that too and has said as much. And I wouldn't have it any other way. We all want what's best for Aston Villa Football Club. I currently think that's Steve Bruce but as soon as I don't think that, then I'll want him out too. Agree completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mykeyb Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 7 hours ago, Stevo985 said: So you really think Bruce is watching games like Blackburn, thinking "Yes, this is how I want us to play" and then speaking to the media and absolutely slating the way we play? Really? Because that's the point I was arguing. Also, players hoofing the ball rarely come from specific instructions to hoof it. It's usually a lack of options and an inability to be calm under whatever pressure they're under. I dont think Bruce wants us to play the way we did at Blackburn but it is a by-product of how he sets the team up and the players he puts in weird positions. If we as fans question the team and formation for saturday as it was quite frankly bizzare you have to wonder how an experienced manager with 4 promotions actually thought that it would garner anymore than the zero points it achieved. He surely didnt think that team, that personel and that formation would play attactive attacking football and win by 2 or 3 goals...could he? Thats the reason why for me he simply has to go after sunday. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mykeyb Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 3 hours ago, Demitri_C said: If you say for example you goal is finishing in play offs and finishwas say 8th that's a failure. But saying top 10 and finishing 12th isn't exactly a complete failure. Missing 10th by 20 points and finishing 12th would be a failure though, (I know we wont be 20 points behind 10th) The bigger picture has to be scene to decide how much of a failure it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mykeyb Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 1 hour ago, BOF said: And just to clarify why my post isn't a get out of jail free card for me or for Bruce. Here's the season progression for 3 'front runners' this season. It took them a while to find their stride. Even Brighton took 9 games (end of September, start of October) to get themselves into a steady playoff position. Just out of interest, is there any reason you chose those 3 teams and didnt include Huddersfield or Newcastle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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