Villa Park redevelopment

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

Just now, sidcow said:

And as someone said yesterday.  As soon as the planning permission was granted all the travel nonsense becomes irrelevant.

There was a very detailed transport strategy submitted as part of the planning application which was accepted.  It was not conditional on the redevelopment of Witton station - that was a nice to have.

Remember the shuttle bus service operating from King Edwards School?

Everything about this development makes perfect sense.

Something stinks about this.  We've not been told the truth about WHY it's not been done and that makes my blood boil more than the actual cancellation of the project.

They said " paused " though... Not cancelled?

[sidcow]

2 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

They said " paused " though... Not cancelled?

I'll believe it when I see it.  That's just placatory language.

Edited December 20, 2023 by sidcow

[Wurzel]

Is this anything to do with this?

 

[delboy54]

21 hours ago, Chindie said:

Heck will be entirely short term thinking. He won't be here in 5 years, arguably not even 3. He needs to pad his CV with short term ready deliverables - stuff that easily drives sales. The stadium is potentially a big millstone around his career so in the bin it goes.

Spot on.

I have seen so many CEO's on a 2 year churn where I work and they just don't want to make any mistakes to blot their CV as they progress up the slippery pole. Short term, mini fix's easy to do stuff that looks great with a bit of bullsh*t and polish on the CV. Heck will be gone in 18 months/2 years - problem is that he may well have bu%%ered up loads of stuff at VP during his tenure but he will be long gone when the brown stuff hits the fan

In a way I am not that surprised that the VP new stand/upgrade was cancelled. 

Intrigued as to what the 5 to 10 year future will look like at VP though...

[El Segundo]

59 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

Reading this thread, you have to laugh at the cynicism and reactionary posts. Assume the worst and run with that narrative. 

I think a lot of the negative reactions - certainly mine -  are not because of what's been said and done but because the message comes across as disingenuous. The reasons given do not stack up and it smacks of hiding some other agenda. Like the messages about refurbishment of the Holte Suite were hiding a different agenda. 

I could understand this approach if the real agenda were a veiled threat to the WMCA/BCC to get their fingers out upgrading the infrastructure in Aston or they may lose the economic boost to the region of the Euros.  But hosting the Euros seems secure even without redevelopment and expansion, so that seems unlikely.   

 

    

[DaveAV1]

11 minutes ago, delboy54 said:

Spot on.

I have seen so many CEO's on a 2 year churn where I work and they just don't want to make any mistakes to blot their CV as they progress up the slippery pole. Short term, mini fix's easy to do stuff that looks great with a bit of bullsh*t and polish on the CV. Heck will be gone in 18 months/2 years - problem is that he may well have bu%%ered up loads of stuff at VP during his tenure but he will be long gone when the brown stuff hits the fan

In a way I am not that surprised that the VP new stand/upgrade was cancelled. 

Intrigued as to what the 5 to 10 year future will look like at VP though...

The last CEO had no qualms about making poor decisions and happily made them anyway. His pals from his former club meant more to him than anything else. Loyalty in operation in modern football!   He also didn’t fanny about getting to know the club as he didn’t regard such stuff as having any relevance to him. 

[villarule123]

I do wonder if something else is at play here. Andy Street has been bigging up the expansion for a long time, and has recently been teasing big news that's imminent, I would assume we are constantly in communication with the council about the comings and goings of the new stand. 

The club has also spent years of time, effort and money getting these plans ready, all for it to go to waste with less than a year to go? 

Then we have the investment announcement last week, with very little explanation as to what they are investing in. 

Something is up. If I had to put money on anything, I'd say a new stadium. And I don't believe anything Heck says to a reporter about it now being true, he and the club have said the new stand is going ahead every time they've been asked up until now. 

Edited December 20, 2023 by villarule123

[rjw63]

8 minutes ago, villarule123 said:

 Andy Street has been bigging up the expansion for a long time, and has recently been teasing big news that's imminent,

 

Self-serving Tory word removed.

[OutByEaster?]

9 hours ago, Wurzel said:

I haven't really kept up with all this stuff, but that was the first thing that crossed my mind. Can I ask a question, does anybody know why this was announced today? Was just because it came up in an interview or was it planned?

It was an in-house interview - essentially Heck had some things he wanted to say so they got the office boy in to read him the questions he'd written and filmed it - it won't have just come up.

It's strange - Heck is a brand manager with a formidable reputation and a proven track record of delivering on brands and the communication of brand ideas and the development of business through that - yet on a personal level his own communication is so erm...peculiar, that it's often still not entirely clear what he's said after he's tried to be clear about it. 

I haven't entirely given up on a 2025 start, simply based on the idea that Heck communicates in a really confused way, and even though I'm fairly sure he's told us it's not happening at all.

[OutByEaster?]

3 hours ago, desensitized43 said:

I wonder if this has anything to do with BCC having pulled funding for anything nonessential.

There wasn't any BCC funding in this.

[OutByEaster?]

2 hours ago, CVByrne said:

Personally I never exactly got why we had to demolish the stand rather than expanding it and upgrading it the way Liverpool did at Anfield. Cheaper to do and keeps the stand open during the upgrade. I think (and hope) we'll see some smaller scale plans for this before Euro 2028.

Because the design of the North Stand makes it impossible. You can't do what Liverpool did with the Anfield Road End at the North Stand because of the different ways the two stands are built - we could do what Liverpool did with the Doug Ellis, but the 'goalpost' structure of the North Stand makes it impossible.

 

[CVByrne]

25 minutes ago, El Segundo said:

I think a lot of the negative reactions - certainly mine -  are not because of what's been said and done but because the message comes across as disingenuous. The reasons given do not stack up and it smacks of hiding some other agenda. Like the messages about refurbishment of the Holte Suite were hiding a different agenda. 

I could understand this approach if the real agenda were a veiled threat to the WMCA/BCC to get their fingers out upgrading the infrastructure in Aston or they may lose the economic boost to the region of the Euros.  But hosting the Euros seems secure even without redevelopment and expansion, so that seems unlikely.   

What do you want Heck to say. The coats of this have gone up massively due to inflation. It looks unlikely that the transport infrastructure will be improved. With the need to have 80% of fans arriving on public transport and the stadium open for a year before the Euros we have too much risk there. 

Additionally when the plans were made they didn't factor in loss of European match day revenue (which we can expect now most seasons) and the impact of two seasons without the north stand on the teams home performance. 

There are limits to what amount of information he can give away. 

[JPAngel]

16 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

It was an in-house interview - essentially Heck had some things he wanted to say so they got the office boy in to read him the questions he'd written and filmed it - it won't have just come up.

The worst part about this part in bold is that, at the beginning of Heck's response to a question he clearly wrote, he triumphantly stated "that's a great question". Cringe.

[OutByEaster?]

43 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

They said " paused " though... Not cancelled?

Paused is interesting - there's a sort of deadline of summer 2025 to get started on this to ensure that it's open and tested in time for the Euros in 2028. I think if it wasn't for the Euros we'd have a stronger version of 'paused' coming from the club.

Where it gets difficult is that the planning permission expires in 2028, so we'd need to resubmit and the world might be a little different by then which could cause delays.

I guess if the club were really keen to press on, but we aren't going to be starting in the summer of 2025, then our next opportunity to start would be after the Euros in the summer of 2029 (provided there are no issues with gaining planning permission) and with a finish date of being ready for the 2031-32 season.

It's a long time and in a future that will most likely look different - so for me the paused, because of the effect of the Euros, most likely effectively means cancelled.

[CVByrne]

20 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

Because the design of the North Stand makes it impossible. You can't do what Liverpool did with the Anfield Road End at the North Stand because of the different ways the two stands are built - we could do what Liverpool did with the Doug Ellis, but the 'goalpost' structure of the North Stand makes it impossible.

I think they can plan phases remove the roof and the goal posts and expand it. More incremental changes around the ground than a demolition of the north stand and rebuild. 

I think for example could plan to remove the roof of North and Doug Ellis, increase the seating / corporate and fill in the corner with the Doug Ellis while removing the goal post at that end. 

There are options anyway to improve that don't result in the demolition of the North Stand 

[Risso]

21 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

What do you want Heck to say. The coats of this have gone up massively due to inflation. It looks unlikely that the transport infrastructure will be improved. With the need to have 80% of fans arriving on public transport and the stadium open for a year before the Euros we have too much risk there. 

Additionally when the plans were made they didn't factor in loss of European match day revenue (which we can expect now most seasons) and the impact of two seasons without the north stand on the teams home performance. 

There are limits to what amount of information he can give away. 

But all of that is total nonsense, and if he is thinking that, he doesn't understand finance and business at all.

Firstly, we haven't even qualified for the Champions League yet, and even if we do AND get all the way to the final, it's an extra six matches. So if we do that two years running, it's 12 matches. But then every year after that, you've got still got those matches, all watched by an extra 10,000 people, every single week for the rest of time. There's a reason the bigger more successful clubs have all got bigger grounds than us, it's so they can get more people and make more money.

The North Stand isn't for purpose. It's decades old, there's no leg room in the seats and the facilities in the stand are atrocious. The hospitality is laughably bad. They could be making an extra £15m a year extra revenue, easily, if not more. All f which goes straight to profit for FFP.

[villarule123]

I really, really hope this is just Heck playing the scapegoat and the club don't want to admit they're delaying it because they want a full stadium for a potential CL campaign. They obviously couldn't just come out and say that if that's what really what is going on. 

[Stephen_Evans]

So “we” looked at it in the summer, were minded to cancel it, but put in a renewed planning application and repeatedly led supporters via the fans consultation group that nothing was amiss.

[meregreen]

Most of the mega bucks from the Champions League comes from sources other than the gate receipts. You could close the ground completely and still rake in millions.

[TheStagMan]

I don't know where I stand on this. The owners have done more than enough to date for me to have faith that they will get our long term future right, but the cancellation (or pause if you believe the words from Heck) are worrying, I am a Villa fan, so the genetic disposition is to fear the worst. 

 

In terms of a new stadium, I would be horrified to move from Villa Park. But then I think about it and Villa Park is a bit "Trigger's broom". Yes Villa Park has been our home for 125 years, but the oldest current stand is the North Stand which opened in 1997 (Holte End - 1995, Trinity - 2000, Witton Lane 1994) and the pitch has been re-laid multiple times, so only the North stand remains from our glory days in the early 80's - other than the location, and that is the one we are all (rightly) desperate to knock down and start again. 

And frankly the area around Villa Park (apart from Aston Hall) is a shithole. 

Part of me thinks that a new stadium is not a bad idea, but the other part of me is absolutely attached to Villa Park - so many memories and so much history. A grand old stadium that is unique, rather than the soul-less modern bowls with a Tesco in them. 

So - what to do with Villa Park if we did get a new stadium? The obvious answer is knock it down and build housing, but the area is still a shit-hole. With a could of hundred (maybe?) new houses, it is not going to be that much of an improvement to the area so not like the land is actually worth that much (maybe one Diaby). 

On that basis, I would prefer that we did what the guy on twitter suggests and massively revamp the area - compulsory purchase the area between Witton Lane and Yew Tree Road and demolish the lot, maybe even as far as the railway line and revamp the whole area boxed between Trinity Road/Jardine Road, Witton Road, the railway line and Aston Hall Road/Expressway, but the costs and hassle of doing so would be astronomical, getting carried away, we could even build a new stadium there and maybe incorporate a train station into the station. Could even buy up the Salts healthcare and Guhring land and build a massive car park there with access directly onto the Aston Expressway - would certainly help with local congestion and would bring in lots of parking revenue (together with local match-day parking restrictions).

I know it is massively wishful thinking, but I could accept a new stadium next to Villa Park  

Edited December 20, 2023 by TheStagMan